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This Week In The Pac-12: NBA Draft Attrition

Arizona can be a real national power next year if Derrick Williams doesn’t . . . oh never mind.

UCLA just might get back to the level of Ben Howland’s final four squads if Malcolm Lee and Tyler Honeycutt don’t . . . really?  Both of them?

They lost some great players, but Alec Burks is so good that Colorado is a threat if he decides to . . . ok, so much for that.

Washington St. could be a real sleeper for the conference title behind DeAngelo Casto and Klay Thompson . . . ouch, tough time for Coug fans.

Shall I keep going?  I can do this for another three Pac-12 teams or so.  Despite generally questionable draft stocks and a very uncertain labor situation, essentially every single Pac-12 player thought to be considering early entry to the NBA draft has decided to forgo their collegiate eligibility for a chance to get paid.  And their decisions will have a major impact on Cal’s 2011-12 season, in ways both good and bad.

Star-divide

Derrick Williams (Arizona), Nikola Vucevic (USC), Malcolm Lee (UCLA) Tyler Honeycutt (UCLA), Alec Burks (Colorado), Isaiah Thomas (Washington), Klay Thompson (WSU), and DeAngelo Casto (WSU) have all declared for the NBA draft.  Additionally, Malcolm Armstead (Oregon) and Will Clyburn (Utah) transferred out of the conference.  Utah also lost a few other players, though Clyburn was the only contributor who has left since former head coach Jim Boylen was fired.

What are the obvious impacts of these departures?  For one, Colorado, Oregon, Utah, USC, and Washington St. will not factor in to the conference championship race barring shockingly unforeseen contributions from first year players and/or former backups.  Arizona St., Oregon St. and Stanford aren’t generally seen as threats either, though that’s because of a lack of talent rather than unexpected player departures.

The second obvious impact?  We’re likely going to have to wait another year before the Pac-12 returns to being an average or above-average power conference.  Every single Pac-12 team that played in the post-season at any level in 2011 lost their best player, or multiple starters, or both.

Except for one team.  Cal.

Now, Washington returns a number of very talented underclassmen who have shown the ability to play and win in the Pac-12.  Arizona returns an underrated supporting caste and has an elite recruiting class coming in.  And UCLA will have by far the most talented group of post players in the conference.  So there are still talented teams in the conference.

And yet, the attrition has been so shocking that some have suggested that perhaps Cal can be considered favorites to take the conference crown back next season.  I’m not ready to go out on that limb, if only because Cal seems likely to have some pretty serious flaws next year.  On the other hand, every single team in the conference will have their own flaws.  The question will likely become "Who can best hide their imperfections?"

We’ve already had a debate on CGB about weather or not this talent drain is good or bad for Cal.  And what it really comes down to is what your focus is on as a fan.  If you’re the type that cares mostly about the NCAA tournament, and believe that fans should root for everything that maximizes an NCAA seed, then this is obvious bad news.  After all, Cal’s reward for winning the Pac-10 in 2009-10 was an 8 seed across from eventual national champion Duke.  Arizona’s reward for winning a marginally better Pac-10 this year was a mediocre 5 seed.  The simple fact is that a bad conference puts a ceiling on the seed a team can earn in March.

On the other hand, if your goal is to win the Pac-12 title, this is obviously wonderful news.  The conference race should be wide open amongst a few teams, and you could do much worse than putting your faith in Monty to find a way to pull it out.

For my money, I care much more about a conference title than the NCAA tournament.  Don’t get me wrong, a deep NCAA tournament run is more entertaining, and these two goals aren’t really mutually exclusive.  It’s just that the NCAA tournament is pretty fluky.  As entertaining as this year’s final four was, neither of the four teams had a particularly strong case for ‘best team in the country’ prior to March.  A conference title, won by surviving an 18 game gauntlet, is a much stronger indication of team accomplishment than the single-elimination NCAA tournament.

So, here are your questions before basketball goes into hibernation until November:

1.    Is Cal actually the favorite in the Pac-12?  Just one of a handful of teams with a reasonable hope?  Or clearly behind a more established program like Arizona or UCLA?

2.    If you had to pick, would you prefer a conference championship or a deep NCAA tournament run – let’s say elite 8?

3.    If you dare, give us a way-too-early power poll for the Pac-12 in 2011-12. 

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I think Arizona and Washington will still be considered favorites at this point. Cal will be nice and hover around #2/#3

no bear, no care

by EchoOfSilence on Apr 25, 2011 3:56 PM PDT reply actions  

I suppose if I had to decide, I would prefer that Cal win the NCAA championship, and be #2 in the Pac-12; but if we aren’t going to the final 4, then I’m with Norcal, I rather just win the Pac-12. I think we have a good shot, a lot will ride on how the sophomores develop, we aren’t going to win it with a rotation of 6 solid guys playing 33 minutes each.

Am I known as Cugel the Clever for nothing?

by Cugel on Apr 25, 2011 4:41 PM PDT reply actions  

Phrasing it as a dichotomy between NCAA tournament and conference success is kind of missing the point

Winning a conference more or less by default is somewhat embarrassing, and something that no player will ever admit to desiring. Guys just don’t go out there with an attitude of “well, maybe we’ll win, but primarily I’m hoping our competition stubs its toe against someone else!”

Like it or not, the fact that the 2009-10 Pac-10 was so awful is an asterisk next to that conference championship. Cal essentially won the equivalent of the title of the WCC or Horizon League that year. I don’t think most, say, Gonzaga fans are primarily focused on winning the conference with a “hey, shit happens” attitude toward the NCAAs.

Personally, I’d take an Elite Eight run over a conference title every day of the week and twice on Sunday. The NCAA tournament is the point of the season. Yes, it’s random— that doesn’t make success there less enjoyable, just less certain. It’s also extremely beneficial for recruiting in a way that a conference title is not.

I’d have to think more about it to come up with a true power poll, but my snap reaction is the following:

1. Arizona
2. Washington
3. Cal
4. UCLA
5. Stanford
6. Oregon
- end of teams with legitimate NCAA hopes-
7. ASU
8. OSU
9. WSU
10. USC
11. Colorado
12. Utah

It’s odd to put both newcomers at the bottom, but neither one has a single returning good player or high-ranking recruit on its roster. Then again, you could also say that about WSU and USC. It’s amazing how many teams in the league are going to be just absolute garbage next season.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Apr 25, 2011 5:43 PM PDT reply actions  

Like it or not, the fact that the 2009-10 Pac-10 was so awful is an asterisk next to that conference championship.

I completely disagree. I doubt many people are going to remember the makeup of the conference that year, but Cal will always be the 2010 conference champion. When it’s been 50 years since your last conference title, that is a big fucking deal.

There have been many, many down years for the conference in both football and men’s basketball, and I don’t think that A) 2010 men’s bball was significantly worse than many of those years and B) other fans sit around downplaying their teams’ accomplishments.

Put another way – Stanfurd went to the Rose Bowl during a pretty down year for the Pac-10 (2000?), but I think just about any of us would have been fucking thrilled to have Cal in the Rose Bowl that year.

www.californiagoldenblogs.com

by CBKWit on Apr 26, 2011 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

2010 was the worst year in the Pac-10 that I can remember,

and keep in mind that you’re talking to someone who remembers at least something about basketball to back when Greg Anthony was playing in college hoops, not commentating on it. I think the last time the Pac-10 was that bad, at least from a results standpoint, was 1984.

I will gracefully decline to engage you in a discussion on the extent to which my apparent failure to toe the Pravda line makes me a bad fan.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Apr 27, 2011 10:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Give me the Elite 8…

The drama and excitment of the tourney are so much fun. Watching Cal play beat opponent after opponent would bring so much more than a Pac-12 title

by ACgiant97 on Apr 25, 2011 7:55 PM PDT reply actions  

1. Is Cal actually the favorite in the Pac-12? Just one of a handful of teams with a reasonable hope? Or clearly behind a more established program like Arizona or UCLA?

Just one of a handful of teams with a reasonable hope.

2. If you had to pick, would you prefer a conference championship or a deep NCAA tournament run – let’s say elite 8?

Elite 8. If it’s Sweet 16, I’d probably say conference championship. Thankfully though, we don’t have to pick. In fact, conference championship is probably more indicative of possible tournament success than otherwise.

3. If you dare, give us a way-too-early power poll for the Pac-12 in 2011-12.

I pretty much agree with PaulThomas’ assessment. I’d put it in tiers, though:

UA/UW/Cal

UCLA

Stanfurd/Oregon in no real order

ASU/OSU/WSU also in no particular order

Colorado/USC

Utah

California Golden Bears: 2nd place is nothing to sneeze at!

by atomsareenough on Apr 25, 2011 8:09 PM PDT reply actions  

Yeah...

I don’t think Cal’s a favorite to win the conference, but a really dangerous dark horse. We still have a very young team that’s more potential than great, but they’ve shown us that they can will their way into wins…something even some very experienced teams aren’t capable of doing. I like the recruits Monty’s bringing in because these are kids that are used to winning and won’t have it any other way. I think UA’s depth has them at conference favorites, Derek Williams or not. UCLA is going to be a threat against any team in the Pac-12 just because they’re so big. It’s going to be hard for any team to rebound against them and get any second chance points. And then it’s UW and Cal. Losing IT is huge for the Huskies because he was just so important to what that team does. They have all the pieces around him, but do they have a point guard that can consistently play at the level he did? We’ll find out. I don’t know much about the other teams, so can’t really say much. But we’re better than them, and that’s all that matters.

by mrjpark on Apr 26, 2011 12:01 AM PDT reply actions  

Oh yeah!

And about the tourney vs. championship thing, I’d honestly prefer having a better conference than Cal dominating a down conference. It just doesn’t feel right that we can only win the conference when it’s down. I want everyone to be good and have a championship game between two teams that are playing their best basketball. I honestly don’t care much about the tourney vs. championship as long as we get one or the other, it’s just I feel like we’re taking a step towards being a real conference contender and don’t really want a bunch of asterisks next to our conference championships (which are coming!).

by mrjpark on Apr 26, 2011 12:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

Washington and UCLA both have extremely unbalanced rosters

Frankly, you could probably combine the two and get two top-15 teams out of the bunch. But Washington has all the guards and UCLA has all the post players.

UCLA in particular is going to have real issues with interior playing time. They have six guys who can only play in the post (Reeves Nelson as a 3-man? No— just no)— Smith, Nelson, Stover, the Wears, and Lane. On the perimeter they have Jerime Anderson (known, not very good), Tyler Lamb (struggled badly last year), Norman Powell (unknown, probably will take time to develop because more a scorer than a shooter), De’End Parker (not a scorer), and Lazeric Jones (solid). Those guys need to cover three positions. Hard to see that working out well.

Washington, meanwhile, has N’Diaye at 7’0, a couple of untested freshmen and I guess Darnell Gant, which isn’t much of a frontcourt.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Apr 26, 2011 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm just glad all the good bigs are on on team

UW will definitely be pretty raw in the post next year, but I don’t think it will hurt us too much. I can’t think of any team other than UCLA which has a frontline I am at all worried about. In fact I’m having a hard time thinking of a single post player who plays for another conference team that has any ability to dominate a game.

The Pac-12 will probably be pretty mediocre all around next year, but that should lead to some exciting games. I’m just hoping that conference coaches don’t use a lack of talent to slow games down to a crawl.

by UW11Bowdown on Apr 26, 2011 9:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

I still think UW and Arizona are a good step ahead of us – we don’t know how we’ll deal with injuries, and a lot of what we’re hoping for is about improvements (from Bak Bak and Solomon) and unknowns (Cobbs + plus the frosh). It’s not like we’re bringing in John Wall – but maybe one of our frosh will turn out to be Ryan Anderson, but we just don’t know at this point.

by LeonPowe on Apr 26, 2011 3:40 AM PDT reply actions  

Not likely

No one knew Ryan Anderson was going to become RYAN ANDERSON so quickly, but he was a four-star recruit. Particularly with bigs, it’s very rare for a low-ranked guy to be immediately productive. If you look at mid-major leagues (which obviously are not getting four-star recruits very often), it’s almost unheard of for teams to have good post players that are freshmen.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Apr 26, 2011 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

1. Is Cal actually the favorite in the Pac-12? Just one of a handful of teams with a reasonable hope? Or clearly behind a more established program like Arizona or UCLA?

Just one of a handful of teams

2. If you had to pick, would you prefer a conference championship or a deep NCAA tournament run – let’s say elite 8?

Conference Championship. Its better for the fans and students (a packed Haas is 9001x better than watching on tv) and championships are what really matters in the end.

by GoldenBear8933 on Apr 26, 2011 10:06 AM PDT reply actions  

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