Everywhere Pete Carroll Goes, Violations Follow
Recently, Pete Carroll left the USC Trojans to coach at the Seattle Seahawks. Seattle had hired Jim Mora one year earlier and seemingly fired him solely to make room for Pete Carroll. There was just one slight mogul in their slalom towards getting the coach of their dreams. The Rooney Rule:
Vikings defensive coordinator Leslie Frazier was one of several candidates interviewed for the vacant position, league officials told La Canfora, putting the Seahawks in compliance with all regulations for their coaching search. Interviewing Frazier allowed Seattle to satisfy the Rooney Rule, in which teams have to interview at least one minority candidate for the job.
That paragraph doesn't fully emphasize the timing of the situation. The Seahawks had essentially decided to hire Carroll. They just had to do two things to make it happen.
1) Fire their current coach
2) Interview some minority. Any minority.
Following those two steps, they were able to hire the coach they wanted and avoid any fines. But what were they trying to avoid? And isn't this just a big sham? After the jump, let's take a look a look at the Rooney Rule and its effect.
Reading that paragraph now, it doesn't paint the full chronological picture. It talks in the past tense. At the time that story was posted, the interview was in the future tense. It actually read as follows:
Vikings defensive coordinator Leslie Frazier will interview for the vacant Seattle head coaching job with Seahawks’ officials Saturday in Minneapolis, a source with knowledge of the meeting told NFL.com's Steve Wyche. Frazier would allow Seattle to satisfy the Rooney Rule, in which teams have to interview at least one minority candidate for the job.
So, essentially, they chose Carroll and then went back for their compliance. Why even bother? Because you can get huge fines. For example, when the Lions hired Steve Mariucci, Matt Millen failed to interview somebody with skin color darker than peach. The Lions got fined 200K and Matt Millen continued to develop the reputation for brutal stupidity:
DETROIT -- The NFL served notice Friday that it is taking its commitment to diversity seriously, fining Detroit Lions president Matt Millen $200,000 for not interviewing any minority candidates before hiring coach Steve Mariucci.
Commissioner Paul Tagliabue sent a letter to Millen informing him of the fine, the first levied under the league's diversity program.
After coach Marty Mornhinweg was fired by the Lions in January, Mariucci was the only person interviewed for the job. The team said five minority candidates turned down interviews because it appeared inevitable Mariucci would be hired.
"While certain of the difficulties that you encountered in seeking to schedule interviews with minority candidates were beyond your control, you did not take sufficient steps to satisfy the commitment that you had made," Tagliabue wrote.
The commissioner told NFL teams in May that future failures to interview minority candidates for a head coaching opening could lead to fines of $500,000 or higher as "conduct detrimental" to the NFL.
According to a footnote in the NYU law review article linked here, this episode is the only time that the NFL really expounded upon what the Rooney Rule is. Apparently, teams have to "take sufficient steps" to interview a minority head coach. The advocates for the Rooney Rule were happy with the fine back in 2003:
At the time of Mariucci's hiring in February, Rooney and Gene Upshaw, the executive director of the NFL Players Association, criticized the Lions for failing to follow that new policy.
"The Detroit Lions gave mere lip service to the agreed-upon minority hiring process, treating it almost as if a nuisance to their hiring of Steve Mariucci," Upshaw said at the time. "The minority candidates were never given a fair chance to interview. In this case, the Lions' position is indefensible."
So what the Lions did was "mere lip service." But isn't that no different than what happened here? So where is the Seahawks $500,000 fine? The Lions didn't take "significant steps," but can it really be said that the Seahawks did? Did the Seahawks really make a good faith attempt to interview Leslie Frazier or any other minority candidate? Though the Lions and Seahawks situations looked somewhat similar, Commissioner Goodall came out in the Sehawks defense:
"I was very confident that Leslie Frazier believed he had a very good opportunity of that job as recently as last Saturday, and I'm convinced in speaking with that club that that's the case," Goodell told ESPN Radio. "I think the Rooney Rule has been terrific for the NFL, and I think it's been terrific for advancement of our personnel. We'll continue to enforce it aggressively."
Let's be honest here. Leslie Frazier and everybody else who had access to the internet or a TV knew Leslie Frazier did not stand a chance. Leslie Frazier might be the greatest assistant coach in the NFL today, it wouldn't matter. The Seahawks fired their head coach SOLELY to bring Carroll in, there was no chance any other coach was getting hired, independent of their skin color, ethnicity, sexual orientation, age, disability, or any other protected class the NFL might have its eye on. That opening existed only because Carroll would take it.
The only seeming difference is that Leslie Frazier decided to help the Seahawks out with the sham interview. In the Lions case, they contacted five separate coaches who would have satisfied the rule and all five turned them down. I can only assume, because they knew the fix was in.
These two instances are not the only times involving sham minority interviews. The NYU article from above further illustrates the tokenism situation:
In this sense, the Rooney Rule may result in a series of sham interviews scheduled solely to satisfy its requirements. These interviews not only commit team resources inefficiently but, more importantly,
they demean the candidates themselves. In forcing teams that have essentially already selected their new head coaches to conduct these interviews, the NFL seems to support—and perhaps mandate—the demeaning phenomenon of tokenism. Instead of being taken seriously, these token candidates are "likely to become future pawns, cast out in front of the media as legitimate possibilities" when in reality they are merely "compliance candidates."For example, the same year that Millen was fined for violating the Rooney Rule, the Dallas Cowboys were in hot pursuit of head coach Bill Parcells, a Caucasian with a legendary track record of success. Cowboys owner Jerry Jones, well aware of the Rule, apparently complied by interviewing African American candidate Dennis Green over the phone for a half hour. And in 2004, the Miami Dolphins delayed hiring Nick Saban, a Caucasian, as head coach when someone in the organization recognized that the team would be fined if it did not first interview a minority candidate.
So, it would seem based off of this limited analysis, that the Rooney Rule is useless, creates a series of sham interviews to avoid giant fines, and just makes minorities feel like tokens.
Of course, the counter argument here is that these are just a few well known examples. In many other cases, genuine interviews were given. The evidence seems to be positive as apparently now 22% of all NFL coaches (7) are minorities. This is the highest amount ever. However, that does bring up the question of correlation and causation. The number of minority coaches might be the highest ever for reasons independent of the Rooney Rule. Perhaps the amount of minority assistant coaches has increased substantially such that more minority head coaches would emerge from the pool. Perhaps the amount of NCAA minority coaches has...ok, I'm just gonna stop there on that one, because we know that's a crock (but a question for another post).
Taking it one step further, we have to take a look at how NFL head coaches are hired. The pure capitalist argument is that the Rooney Rule is not needed, because NFL executives would hire the head coaches with the greatest merit. The pure capitalist argument would say that NFL executives would completely ignore skin color as it is irrelevant to coaching merit.
However, it is not as if there is a purely capitalist job search. It's not as if jobs are merely placed on Craigslist. It's a networking thing. That's how the same names and faces seemed to get opportunities over and over and over again. Like Pete Carroll getting the job without any need for an interview, even though he's failed as a NFL coach twice already. If the jobs are filled based on a professional network and the network doesn't necessarily have a lot of minority faces then the Rooney Rule is helpful if only to get more minority faces into that network.
Show of hands. How many people had never heard of Leslie Frazier before reading that NFL.com story? I'll be honest enough to raise my hand on that one. Now, I'm not a NFL executive. Most NFL executives probably knew of Leslie Frazier beforehand. However, the concept is still the same. Just getting interviews (even if it is essentially a sham) gets your name out there. Gets people thinking.
The NYU article called it Unconscious Bias. People are biased against hiring minority coaches, not because they actually are biased against minority coaches, but because when they look up to hire somebody, they don't have a lot of minority coaches hanging around with them. I am not in a NFL executive's office. I don't know the breakdown of ethnicity amongst assistant coaches. So, I cannot necessarily pass judgment regarding the argument that there is an Unconscious Bias amongst NFL executives. I'll leave that for you guys to decide.
Do we need the Rooney Rule? Does it just create sham interviews? Does it merely punish honesty? Please provide your thoughts in the comments.
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As someone who is heistently pro affrimative action, I think the Rooney Rule is the dumbest thing in sports. What’s the point, really? Especially for jobs which are this rare (31 teams?) – and because of the specialized knowledge and experience required for an NFL head coach, it seems silly, to me, to require a minority interview, when often the candidate is already pre-determined.
Honestly, sports, as an almost true meritorcracy, will see minority candidates rise over time – I believe it will just be a grounds up movement that will just take a few years, maybe another decade. The part which looks really bad is that there tends to be a lot of recycling of unsuccessful head coaches – while seemingly qualified candidates (both minority and non-minority) get passed over. The model, I think for ideal situations would be the NBA where minority coaches don’t even rate a mention – even with an Asian American head coach in the league.
by LeonPowe on Jul 26, 2010 3:26 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
The model, I think for ideal situations would be the NBA where minority coaches don’t even rate a mention – even with an Asian American head coach in the league.
The NBA, however, is overwhelmingly populated with minority athletes, whereas the NFL is significantly less so.
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While this is nominatively true, the percentage of black players in the NFL is still quite a bit more than the general population.
And really, there are zero Filipino players, and one filipino head coach. I don’t know why the NFL would be significantly more racist than the NBA – I really do believe that professional sports is out ahead of the rest of the country in being closer to race-blind.
Whether the Rooney Rule has something to do with that or not (I don’t think so, myself – I chalk it up to newer ownership who were raised in more elightened eras), I really believe that we’re almost past the time that the rule is needed now. Not in society in general, but specifically for the NFL.
While this is nominatively true, the percentage of black players in the NFL is still quite a bit more than the general population.
Black people are only 12% US population, so that’s not really saying a whole lot. Also, the NFL is a tiny, tiny sample size compared to309 million Americans. I think the real comparison they’re looking at is (% of Black coaches vs. % of Black players).
The other thing to keep in mind is that there is a large family aspect to football that there just isn’t in baseball. The Rooneys. The Kiffins. The Mannings. The list goes on and on. More recognition in pedigrees means less thinking outside the box when it comes to hirings. it’s almost 3:30am, so I’m not making my point very well, but I’m hoping it’s getting through.
As far as there being no Filipino coaches/players, that’s not an apt analogy – there’s no 400+ year-history of American racism against Filipinos. I have Indian friends and Asian friends who ask, “Why is issues of racism always centered around Black people in this country?” It’s because Black people got the shit end of the stick for almost half a millenium, and continue to receive it to this day. Things are changing, though – people of Arab descent and/or Muslim beliefs have been getting fucked around pretty badly rap for the last decade of so, so issues of race are starting to be discussed about these groups too. Lucky them.
Also: in order for there to be racism against ethnic groups in sports, those ethnic groups actually need to be present in said sports. American professional athletes (in the the major sports anyway) are almost exclusively who would be considered Black or White. No one’s going to complain about Malaysian people not being involved in professional sports because they’re aren’t a whole lot of Malaysian people champing at the bit to play. Out of the all the major sports, MLB is the closest thing we have to a Benetton ad – and for some reason, that’s something that people tend to forget.
As far as whether the Rooney Rule
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by BearStage on Jul 27, 2010 2:36 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
dammit
As for whether the Rooney Rule still needs to be there – I’m firmly on the fence.
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Perfect case in point: Norm Chow
Who cares about him getting the short end of the stick when it comes to HC job openings. In college football- most school Presidents and AD’s point to his brusque demeanor and the fact that he’ll only go OUT on the recruiting trail for QB’s. (that was his history over at USC, he has changed quite a lot since being over at Ucla- where they need EVERYONE and ANYONE they can. Especially on the D- and O- lines.
Asian Americans don’t get the pub for being overlooked. What you had to say “in order for there to be racism against ethnic groups in sports, those ethnic groups actually need to be present in said sports”- is spot on BearStage!
"As for being a Raiders fan, I wouldn't wish that fucking shit on anybody." [the venerable OTS at Roll Bama Roll}
by BixBeiderbecke on Jul 27, 2010 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions
I’m standing on the table pro affirmative action, and I think the Rooney Rule is still great. You have to understand that for minority candidates, in football or on the job, you’re going to go to job interviews that are shams from the start. Some places will never have a “no blacks need apply” sign on the door, but they will still not hire you. Closed societies like the NFL are built upon hiring the same white faces because that is what has always occurred. The Rooney Rule forces teams to see what they’re missing out on as they interview minority coaches, even if they have made up their minds to go elsewhere. Because by seeing this pool of minority coaches over and over again, executives who may never truly known they’d existed, now has a contact list full of people and no excuses. So who gets blamed if Pete Carroll bombs and Leslie Frazier succeeds. The GM who gave the sham interview to Frazier. The winner is the next GM who picks Frazier.
The goal is not for every black coach hired to be a Super Bowl winner. The goal is for there to be as many mediocre black NFL head coaches given multiple shots at winning as mediocre white head coaches (I’m looking at you, Norv Turner!). By expanding the pool, we’ll eventually succeed. Remember, MLB teams auditioned a bunch of Negro league players before picking Jackie Robinson. Then they added Larry Doby. Then there was a flood. Yet it still took the Boston Red Sox twelve years after Robinson first entered MLB to add their first black player. It works slowly.
by BlackandOldGold on Jul 26, 2010 5:20 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs

Some places will never have a "no blacks need apply" sign on the door, but they will still not hire you. Closed societies like the NFL are built upon hiring the same white faces because that is what has always occurred.
I suppose the above image was entirely 100% accident and luck, then?
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions

I suppose the above image was entirely 100% accident and luck, then?
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by CBKWit on Jul 26, 2010 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I wasn’t aware Norv Turner made any other kind of face than that.
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What does this have to do with Mike Tomlin winning the super bowl?
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Mike Tomlin's success
does not prove that minorities are given fair/equal opportunities to coach nfl teams. Witness Norv Turner. I doubt it is 100% accident/luck that this awful coach has had a job coaching an nfl team for a decade.
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Believe me I’m a Raiders fan, I’ll be the first to jump on Norv’s shortcomings… though its not all his fault… Professional San Diego teams are not allowed to win championships
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you guys just need a hockey team
that’s my solution to everything, more hockey!
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you guys?… i have the sharks
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by CruzinBears on Jul 26, 2010 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Norv Turner has very little to do with anything. There have been hundreds of shitty white coaches. Some bad black coaches too, and some very good black coaches. Why would Mike Tomlin or Lovie Smith or Tony Dungy have been hired if the NFL is as closed and fraternal as Blackandsomething implies? It’s akin to Glenn Beck saying that Barack Obama is racist.
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree that there have been hundreds of shitty white coaches and plenty of bad black coaches. However, my basic point is that you can’t just point to Tomlin/Dungy and say, hey, there’s proof that the NFL isn’t racist. To borrow your Fox News analogy, that’s like pointing to the Acorn scandal and saying see, there’s no racism in America except for “reverse” racism.
I think the NFL has opened up a lot over the last decade+ in regards to diversity, and I would guess that the Rooney Rule has had something do with it. I’d also say that while things have improved, there is still plenty of room for more improvement.
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However, my basic point is that you can’t just point to Tomlin/Dungy and say, hey, there’s proof that the NFL isn’t racist.
Much in the same way that pointing at Norv Turner isn’t proof that the NFL is racist…
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Aren’t you both right in the sense that individual examples are not indicative of systematic bias (or lack thereof)? The Norv Turner comment from BlackAndOldGold seemed to be a sorta joking throw away comment that related to his comment regarding the true goal to be mediocre minority coaches receiving multiple opportunities to fail.
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It is true that Tyrone Willingham has had many opportunities to fail. So, we have one. Denny Green is another. So, we have two. Any others that I can think of?
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An odd case study to bring up, since more than a few alleged that his handling by ND seemed a bit…biased.
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I thought of that, but I think the whole accusation was nonsense. Why would they have hired him in the first place?
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 6:59 PM PDT up reply actions
No, but you’re basically using the argument that “there have been many shitty white coaches who suck, therefore the NFL is racist.”
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions
And you seem to trying to argue that there has been one or two good minority coaches in a Superbowl, so there is no need for the Rooney Rule.
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I’m genuinely curious, then, at what point will the Rooney Rule not be needed? Until all (already) circumstantial evidence of race-based non-hiring is eliminated? (Based on who’s testimony?) Until five black coaches win the Super Bowl? Ten? Until the coach demographics are proportional to the NFL’s minority popularion? The US’ population?
Serious question.
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions
good question
I don’t know. Maybe the people who wrote the rule have some inclination as to when they’ll repeal it? Maybe they never will, if the only downside being the league gets some money in fines when dumbass organizations like the Lions don’t comply with it?
But I agree, that’s an interesting question.
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In that case, if there is no discernable solution, how can you be sure there is a discernable problem?
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Just because I’m not sure what the end goal should be tangibly does not mean that no racial discrimination existed/exists in regards to nfl hiring policies.
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The end goal should be no racism in the NFL. They could easily fix part of that problem by eliminating the Rooney Rule.
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Problem solved!
Just because I’m not sure what the end goal should be tangibly
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I really don’t get it.
In this organization, there may or may not be a problem, therefore we will apply something that may or may not be a solution in order to look good to the public?
How is that not lip service?
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 7:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Clearly, there was a problem
At the time of its implementation, only 6 minorities had ever held an NFL head coaching position. Ever. Since its implementation, the percentage of minorities hired jumped from 6% to 22%. That’s a monumental shift. It’s a hell of a lot more than lip service.
As to whether or not racial discrimination in hiring practices is still a problem in the NFL, I don’t know. I don’t know what the tangible end goal is, what it should be, or if there even should be one. It’s an interesting discussion, and one I don’t know much about. What I would say, however, is that the Rooney rule has been pretty, startlingly, effective, or it’s been one hell of a coincidence.
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In the NBA, there hasn’t been a Rooney Rule, and yet, NBA minority head coaches have increased at a faster rate – now obviously there’s other factors, (including the NBA being a 75% + black league) but I’d say we’re moving well beyond the day when the Rooney Rule is needed in the NFL. (Affirmative action in other places I do believe is still relevant – but I think sports is . . .improving without the legislation to improve)
maybe we are now at the point where the Rooney Rule is no longer necessary. I really don’t know the answer to that question. I would contend that it was necessary when it was implemented, and that it had a pretty dramatic impact (more than 300% growth!). I would also contend that there’s very little downside, so why eliminate it? But again, I am not sure if it is still “necessary”.
A more relevant question might be, what is the NFL going to do with it? In 09, they expanded the rule to include all senior football positions, not just head coaches, so it’s pretty clear they have been pleased with the results. My guess is that it’s not going anywhere for a while?
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In my industry I have seen lots of diversity reports with regards to sports business and franchises. While I’m still generally in favor of AA programs – sports is one area in which minority senior management (especially under-represented minorities) is ahead of general businesses in the US. Obviously as we start to see a lot of former players move into coaching and front office positions, this will continue. I’m not generally a proponent of free market fixes – but this is one area I feel it works.
fair enough
you would agree, though, that it’s been a pretty dramatic transformation regarding nfl head coaching hires since the Rooney Rule was implemented, right?
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You honestly think the Rooney Rule contributes to racism? How? Interviewing is not a zero sum game. Just because they have to interview at least one minority candidate doesn’t mean any other qualified candidate misses out. Who exactly does it harm? In a league that is well over 50% minority, it seems reasonable to me to say one must make an effort to at least consider minority candidates for open leadership positions.
The Old Boy network is extraordinarily powerful. If you fit into a demographic that falls outside the OBN it is truly much harder to get a chance for many types of leadership roles (not just in the NFL). I applaud the NFL for taking this relatively minor, easily fulfilled and non-discriminatory step to at least make the playing field a bit less tilted, if not level.
By highlighting race as a factor in hiring rather than ones’ coaching ability, yes, I think it contributes to racism.
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 9:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Calling out this as racist instead of many much more blatant, and damaging, examples of racism is…interesting.
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I don’t get this point. Are you saying that the Rooney Rule does not contribute to racism because there are other, much worse examples of racism?
If a cop pulls me over should I explain to him that speeding in my car is not a crime because there are other, much worse examples of crimes?
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 9:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I just find it interesting
for someone who seems as concerned about racism as you do, that this strikes you as a particularly blatant example of it. To use your speeding analogy, it’s like someone who is concerned about a huge increase in crime…and focuese on something like jaywalking.
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The only time someone has used the word “blatant” in this thread is you, in your last two posts. Where did you get the idea that I thought this was the most egregious example of racism? I said “contributes to racism.” Sure there are much, much bigger things which contribute to racism.
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 9:37 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree with you Spazzy
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by THESeymoreBear on Jul 26, 2010 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions
lol
Politics on this website, my initial reaction is BAD IDEA, but then again we are the freedom of speech university.
It is good—-Berkeley isn’t LIBERAL like everyone says, it is a huge plethora of many different opinions, and that is why I love it.
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by THESeymoreBear on Jul 26, 2010 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions
exactly!
I used the Turner picture as an example of how you can’t point to one person and extrapolate to the entire system…which is what you were trying to do with Tomlin. I found that ridiculous, so I inserted my equally ridiculous picture using your statement…which you rightly labeled as ridiculous!
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But you sort of can use the example of one black coach in the Super Bowl to extrapolate the entire system, because it is the ultimate measure of success. There is really no ultimate measure of failure because the team can always improve the following year, which is why mediocre coaches hang around so long (not because they’re white…). If you charge the entire NFL as being racist, then you charge that no black coach will get hired, because no black coach can ever be successful. This has been proven wrong time and time again, and owners don’t need a racist rule to help them see this. Maybe 30 years ago they did, but not today.
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions
that is ridiculous
I don’t think the standard for America being “racist” is that every person is 100% racist. That’s like claiming we’re “socialist” because we are not 100% capitalist.
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Fair enough, maybe I went too far with that point, but the first two points I believe are salient. Equating winning the Super Bowl with 10 mediocre years as coach are not possible because there is no ultimate measure of failure.
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions
But 1 coach (2 with Dungy) winning 1 Super Bowl can’t be defined as the ultimate measure of success. Many coaches win multiple super bowls, so saying that 1 (2) minority coach(es) won super bowl(s) proves there’s no racism in hiring practices is as ridiculous as saying 1 shitty white coach (Norv Turner) having a job for x number of years despite a history of failure proves the nfl is completely racist.
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My original point wasn’t to suggest there is no racism in hiring practices but to refute the statement that “Closed societies like the NFL are built upon hiring the same white faces because that is what has always occurred.” This plainly isn’t true…
Mike Tomlin shows that with black success, the “problem” will fix itself over time…
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 7:16 PM PDT up reply actions
then Norv Turner's white face
show that the “problem” (I guess you’re implying that racism is not a problem by using quotes here?) will never go away.
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Racism is not a problem in the NFL.
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions
before the implementation of the Rooney Rule
only six minorities had ever held a head coaching position in the NFL.
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is
Not “was.”
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 7:23 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t think the “problem” will fix itself overtime if we don’t have tangible plans to fix it. If you don’t like the Rooney Rule, fair enough. What specific plans do you think the NFL should take to solve the “problem?”
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I do not think there is currently a racial hiring bias in the NFL, therefore I do not think the Rooney Rule is necessary at all, to begin with.
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 7:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Who needs tangible plans?
The problem has been fixing itself over time. Long-term exposure to a racially inclusive society has definitely changed attitudes, and will continue to do so. Integrating entertainment and sports opened a lot of people’s minds. So to the re-integration of the military. Progress has come mostly from the removal of barriers rather than the implementation of social expedients.
by Monica's Dad on Jul 26, 2010 7:23 PM PDT up reply actions
I would say
that, after 200 years of slavery and another 100 years of extremely limited participation, most African-Americans would say that they wish there had been some tangible plans earlier instead of letting the problem “fix” itself over 300 years.
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In the 1860s we needed a tangible
plan. And it doesn’t get more tangible than calling up millions of soldiers to fight a war.
And yet, the whole abolition movement began in white churches where attitudes had, indeed, changed over time to the point where those white folks would no longer abide the sin of slavery. You’ve made my point for me.
by Monica's Dad on Jul 26, 2010 7:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Without getting into too much civil war history
it was much more about economics and seccession than slavery. But I think my point still stands…
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Sorry, my note below was for you.
Replied to myself by mistake.
by Monica's Dad on Jul 26, 2010 7:29 PM PDT up reply actions
I think this is a great question
it drives at the heart of the anti AA argument, that the free market will fix any discrimination in the long run.
I would contend, with extremely strong evidence, in my opion, that the free market is not perfectly efficient, especially dealing with things like discrimination, and it does not “fix” things like this in the long run.
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Really?
Do you think a lot of your friends and neighbors would buy things from people and companies that intentionally discriminated against certain races of people?
by Monica's Dad on Jul 26, 2010 7:26 PM PDT up reply actions
I think you and I both buy plenty of things from companies that do plenty of discrimination
The trick is, the discrimination is not out in the open very frequently (like a sign in the window) any more. It’s in things like interview selection!
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
I am with Monica
The free-market DOES in-fact settle this difference. In a viral world, if there was a company that was allowed to be explicitly racist, it would then allow the race that is being patronized, to not be a patron of the place, as well as it would make transparent the idiotic bigotry of the place, and people would not go (I am sure some would, but it would be economic suicide)
Don't Tread on Me.
by THESeymoreBear on Jul 26, 2010 9:43 PM PDT up reply actions
okay
First you must realize “studies” are not the alpha and omega, they can be skewed (cue fox v.s. abc. v.s. cnn on polling numbers)
2nd-I understand that racism still exists (and is for backwards bafoons that I sure wish will die sooner than later), but the fact that people are “forced” to be unracist, is not only a constitutional right being violated, it also protects the racists.
IF they are being forced, we aren’t changing anything, they will continue to be racist, and profit of the patrons of such race.
IF they had been allowed to not speak their bigotted minds, like I said, it would be economic suicide.
Don't Tread on Me.
by THESeymoreBear on Jul 26, 2010 9:52 PM PDT up reply actions
I do agree that “studies” from such remedial institutions as U Chicago and MIT should always be treated with a great amount of skeptism if they run completely counter to your world view, but I promised I would stop responding. So I have to leave it there.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
okay :)
agree to respect each others opinions.
Don't Tread on Me.
by THESeymoreBear on Jul 26, 2010 10:02 PM PDT up reply actions
again, go fuck yourself :)
Hopefully there will be a new topic tomorrow (Immigration anyone??) that you can get in on before we agree to a truce
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
We have a very controversial post for tomorrow, but it is football related. Sorry!
CGB's Jimmy Carter
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
haha hockey is my favorite sport too
1. Hockey
2. College Football
3. Rugby
4. NFL
5. NBA
there we can agree
Don't Tread on Me.
by THESeymoreBear on Jul 26, 2010 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions
pretty close
1) Hockey
2) College football
3) College Bball
4) The rest of them.
I scored a couple goals last night, team’s in first place!
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
One thing I think we can all agree on
is that the NHL should implement a rule requiring the interviewing of one European-born candidate each time a coach is hired.
CGB: Come join the LOLigarchy
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 10:20 PM PDT up reply actions
oh god immigration
I am a libertarian, so I might be different than what you might even think from our current conversation
Don't Tread on Me.
by THESeymoreBear on Jul 26, 2010 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions
haha
NO
…
we are not republicans
we are libertarians
I do not associate myself with republicans
since the only thing we MIGHT agree on they don’t even do right (fiscal conservatism)
Don't Tread on Me.
by THESeymoreBear on Jul 26, 2010 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions
See, now we’re getting into more of a Libertarian argument (as i understand it, though my understanding may be wrong).
I was having a similar discussion with a self-professed Libertarian last night who was basically saying that in an ideal libertarian society, people would be free to live and run their businesses as they see fit, and society would dictate whether they would succeed or fail. Business owners would be free to discriminate against anyone they wished – and the majority of sound-thinking people would choose not to frequent that business, and it would, in this society, fail.
My problem with this view is that society as we know it would not exist without government having intervened to create anti-discrimination laws. People would not have simply ended slavery because it was the right thing to do. I doubt we would have allowed women to vote simply because we should. Same thing with gay discrimination, disabled discrimination, etc. etc. If a business ran an exclusive service, should a disabled person be denied that service simply because that business owner doesn’t like disabled people, or because he/she is too lazy to install a ramp or elevator? Here’s the point: it’s easy to say “my friends wouldn’t frequent a racist shop” – but only because laws had previously had been put in place such that society was forced to change before your friends were born.
CGB: Wasting Your Potential, Your Time, & Your Life Since 2006.
No it’s not. Tomlin (hired by the Rooney’s who founded the rule), Smith and Dungy only were able to get jobs when the Rooney rule was put in effect. Prior to that, the doors were pretty much closed, except for Art Shell (who only worked for Crazy Al) and Dennis Green. You’re actually proving the point that the Rooney Rule works.
by BlackandOldGold on Jul 26, 2010 9:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Good Grief
I know, with all the pissing and moaning going on with everyone wanting their piece of the pie, I can see having quotas to even play the flipping sports. Uh, yeah, we need 3 more white guys, 1 more black guy, 4 more asians, 2 latinos, and 4 native americans…NOW we have ourselves a “FAIR and BALANCED” Team. Lets go play ball boys.
by DirtyHarryUSMC on Jul 26, 2010 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t think that BlackAndOldGold is making the argument that Tomlin’s Superbowl victory was entirely 100% accident and luck. I also do not believe that BlackAndOldGold is making the argument that because Tomlin coached the Steelers to the Superbowl there is full and complete racial equality in the NFL coaching search.
I would also note that the Steelers are owned by Dan Rooney, i.e. the promulgator of the Rooney Rule! If more teams acted like the Steelers, there would be no need for the Rooney Rule.
CGB's Jimmy Carter
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
Things like this are generally always hot-button issues, and I think we all need to be careful with our comments to keep this discussion civil…
That being said, if the Seahawks were in full compliance, doesn’t that make this a nonstory? Like Twist eluded to, if Seattle already knew they were going after Carroll, like Detroit knew they wanted Mooch, where is the problem, exactly? Where are the press releases and news articles where the minority applicants are shaking their fists in a rage of racist fury? Because this isn’t an issue. If Charlie Strong or Tony Dungy were offered head coaching positions without conducting a search, would the same articles be published? Just seems as if this was an extremely slow newsday, and someone decided to stir the pot.
California Golden Blogs! Objectivity. Some journalists have yet to be introduced.
by Maisbikkja on Jul 26, 2010 5:31 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
I certainly tried to keep this more of a open ended discussion than a rant or screed against one particular side. Except for the mind-numbing stupidity that is Pete Carroll. I think we can all agree on that!
CGB's Jimmy Carter
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
I must have missed something (prolly A LOT) here on CGB
Qualify your statement, why is Pete Carroll so stupid? I might happen to disagree. Might. .. . .?
"As for being a Raiders fan, I wouldn't wish that fucking shit on anybody." [the venerable OTS at Roll Bama Roll}
by BixBeiderbecke on Jul 26, 2010 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions
why is Pete Carroll so stupid?
The season starts in like 6 weeks, I’m not sure I have enough time to answer this question.
CGB's Jimmy Carter
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!
WINNER! (get that man a gin and tonic)
"As for being a Raiders fan, I wouldn't wish that fucking shit on anybody." [the venerable OTS at Roll Bama Roll}
by BixBeiderbecke on Jul 26, 2010 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions
lol calbear81’s a chick ;)
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
by GoldBlooded on Jul 26, 2010 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions
or as jane austen would say, “a lady”
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
by GoldBlooded on Jul 26, 2010 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Hey, I was enjoying being called a “chick.” That doesn’t happen very often at my age.
Exit, Pursued By A Bear
sup girl
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
by GoldBlooded on Jul 26, 2010 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm sorry, I apologize
But, THAT WAS DAMN GOOD! (gin and tonic, it is!)
"As for being a Raiders fan, I wouldn't wish that fucking shit on anybody." [the venerable OTS at Roll Bama Roll}
by BixBeiderbecke on Jul 26, 2010 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions
I think this article needs a new title, maybe something like “I don’t like the Rooney Rule”, unless we can get a lawyer involved to show the violation.
I don’t have a better idea than Rooney for increasing workplace diversity. Is there something that can be done short of forcing firms to hire people they don’t think are best for the job? On the positive side, diversity in hiring pools can give qualified candidates a chance to impress employers, if not for the job they are interviewing now then for the next time. It can also have an incremental effect on changing the culture. My experience, in government, where people were advanced because of a particular ethnic background is negative: comprises performance and kills moral for people of all backgrounds.
Or, if you are looking to make fun of USC why not just link to this guy named Ted Miller and his best-case-worst-case scenario — amusing.
http://espn.go.com/blog/pac10/post/_/id/11171/best-case-worst-case-usc-3
jh
forcing firms to hire people they don’t think are best for the job?
Firms don’t purposely hire people they don’t think are fit for the job. It’s bad for business.
CGB: Wasting Your Potential, Your Time, & Your Life Since 2006.
Dude, you were up at 3 AM. . . . .TO POST THIS?
I’m just hoping that Pete Carroll didn’t offer sideline access to Mayor Anotonio Villaraigosa. Now, THAT GUY (mayor) IS IN A LOT OF HOT WATER!
Yeah, I guess it’s true though. Pete Carroll = violations. Violations = cheating.
CGB- the new SEC of the Pac 10.
"As for being a Raiders fan, I wouldn't wish that fucking shit on anybody." [the venerable OTS at Roll Bama Roll}
Uhhhhhhhhh, right!
Is she called Ginny Tonic?
"As for being a Raiders fan, I wouldn't wish that fucking shit on anybody." [the venerable OTS at Roll Bama Roll}
by BixBeiderbecke on Jul 26, 2010 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions
PS, I hope we are the SEC of the Pac10. Where’s our 2 billion dollar TV contract, Bix??? Where’s that!
CGB's Jimmy Carter
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
Left coast financials, I suppose?
They HATE the left coast. I’ll bet they think Berkeley’s got smog and Tupac’s still alive somewhere in San Leandro?(I just love saying that: lee-ann-droe. wtf kind of name is that anyway?)
"As for being a Raiders fan, I wouldn't wish that fucking shit on anybody." [the venerable OTS at Roll Bama Roll}
by BixBeiderbecke on Jul 26, 2010 8:38 AM PDT up reply actions
spanish
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
by GoldBlooded on Jul 26, 2010 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
We're in America, gosh damn it!
Speak American!
"As for being a Raiders fan, I wouldn't wish that fucking shit on anybody." [the venerable OTS at Roll Bama Roll}
by BixBeiderbecke on Jul 26, 2010 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions
‘america’ is an italian name, and we speak english, the official language of ‘england’
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
by GoldBlooded on Jul 26, 2010 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Amerigo is an Italian name. America is a Spanish name
Spanish is my native language- then German, then English.
Sarcasm doesn’t come across well on blogs. I’m as brown as they come, homie. Trust me on this, I know what I’ve been writing and what I’ve been trying to say (with humor). Apologizing now, through my futility.
"As for being a Raiders fan, I wouldn't wish that fucking shit on anybody." [the venerable OTS at Roll Bama Roll}
by BixBeiderbecke on Jul 26, 2010 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions
inanity doesnt exist on this blog, i took everything you said 100% seriously and now i hate you
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
by GoldBlooded on Jul 26, 2010 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
Let me look that word up, it's so. . . . . .BIG!
Hate, huh???? I’ll get back to you!
"As for being a Raiders fan, I wouldn't wish that fucking shit on anybody." [the venerable OTS at Roll Bama Roll}
by BixBeiderbecke on Jul 26, 2010 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions
SPIN THE WHEEL, RAGGEDY MAN!
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
by GoldBlooded on Jul 26, 2010 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions
THAT WAS GOOD!
Wow, now. . . . .you’re my favorite GCB-er. Twist, get outta my bed!
"As for being a Raiders fan, I wouldn't wish that fucking shit on anybody." [the venerable OTS at Roll Bama Roll}
by BixBeiderbecke on Jul 26, 2010 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions
wait, if twist is sleeping with you, and i’m sleeping with twist, then that means….oh boy
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
by GoldBlooded on Jul 26, 2010 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Hot damn!
You’ve already kissed me?
"As for being a Raiders fan, I wouldn't wish that fucking shit on anybody." [the venerable OTS at Roll Bama Roll}
by BixBeiderbecke on Jul 26, 2010 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions
lol dude
i just learned something hilarious. apparently the name “america” is more or less the feminized version of the name ‘henry’ in english. therefore, i move that we change the name of the country to ‘the united states of henrietta’
The earliest known use of the name America for this particular landmass dates from April 25, 1507. It appears first on a small globe map with twelve time zones, and then a large wall map created by the German cartographer Martin Waldseemüller in Saint-Dié-des-Vosges in France. An accompanying book, Cosmographiae Introductio, states, “I do not see what right any one would have to object to calling this part, after Americus who discovered it and who is a man of intelligence, Amerige, that is, the Land of Americus, or America: since both Europa and Asia got their names from women”. Americus Vespucius is the Latinized version of the Florentine explorer Amerigo Vespucci’s name, and America is the feminine form of Americus.2425 Amerigo itself is an Italian form of the medieval Latin Emericus (see also Saint Emeric of Hungary), which through the German form Heinrich (in English, Henry) derived from the Germanic name Haimirich.26
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
by GoldBlooded on Jul 26, 2010 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions
THAT'S CRAZY!
The weird thing is, my salsa dance teacher here in Los Angeles (2 years ago, I’m not “that cool” anymore to take dance lessons????)- was named America.
Guess what? She’s from the Philippines????
Why is it that Filipinos seem to be more Spanish than Euro-Spanish bred people? (fwiw: I was born in Chile, moved to Los Gatos when I was 4. Been in LA since 1999)
"As for being a Raiders fan, I wouldn't wish that fucking shit on anybody." [the venerable OTS at Roll Bama Roll}
by BixBeiderbecke on Jul 26, 2010 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions
lol, weird? i think the worst thing about the philippines is that the native people cannot pronounce the phenome ‘f’. it’s like naming the US something with a tounge-click consonant in it. so cruel.
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
by GoldBlooded on Jul 26, 2010 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Fuckin SHIT!
I’m having a conniption over here. I’ve been laughing my ass off for minutes!!!!!!! Minutes!!!!!!!!!!
Okay, this is what I wanted to say. . . .
For the life of me, I always seem to fuck up the song lyrics of most songs I like. (did I mention English is my third language???)
In this B-52’s song (at the 3:52 mark)- I ALWAYS THOUGHT THEY SAID “HENNNN-RY!” (but it’s Tin Roof? WTF? I kinda knew “Henry” didn’t fit, but Tin Roof makes even less sense! What do I know?)
How did I find out I was singing it wrong. I was singing the song in the shower of a woman who is a B-52’s disciple! And loudly.
She told every single person she could “how cute I was”. (yes, I had to let her go. it’s a recession!)
"As for being a Raiders fan, I wouldn't wish that fucking shit on anybody." [the venerable OTS at Roll Bama Roll}
by BixBeiderbecke on Jul 26, 2010 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions
seeing the lead singer’s old man face just now has forever ruined b-52’s songs for me
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
by GoldBlooded on Jul 26, 2010 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Tin roof, rusted! The tin roof of the love shack, of course. Makes more sense than Henry, rusted, doesn’t it?
Damn, I'm getting spanked over here today
I give!
(but “Hennnnnnn-ry!” sounds so much better in the shower. Try it!)
"As for being a Raiders fan, I wouldn't wish that fucking shit on anybody." [the venerable OTS at Roll Bama Roll}
by BixBeiderbecke on Jul 26, 2010 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions
FWIW
I would shout, “Hennnnn-ry, busted!” (man, I moiderized that tune!)
"As for being a Raiders fan, I wouldn't wish that fucking shit on anybody." [the venerable OTS at Roll Bama Roll}
by BixBeiderbecke on Jul 26, 2010 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions
The United States of Henry!
"UC Davis??? hahahahaha" - Aaron Rodgers
by atomsareenough on Jul 26, 2010 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions
That's it!
Me and my marbles? We’re outta here. (why don’t cha play “locked-games” or something? an outsider doesn’t have a chance over here! i’m telllin’!)
"As for being a Raiders fan, I wouldn't wish that fucking shit on anybody." [the venerable OTS at Roll Bama Roll}
by BixBeiderbecke on Jul 26, 2010 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions
wait, but you grabbed my shooter!!!!!!
Now I’ll never win my marble championship bout against Twist next week…
"Remember the Maine! TO HELL WITH STANFORD!"
I like your steely!
It’s shiny. (Twist is good though, he beat me at Bakugan this weekend) Go to the game section, Twist is dope!
"As for being a Raiders fan, I wouldn't wish that fucking shit on anybody." [the venerable OTS at Roll Bama Roll}
by BixBeiderbecke on Jul 26, 2010 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Martin Luther King Jr. would be ashamed of such a rule.
“Judge people not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.”
by medvjed on Jul 26, 2010 7:45 AM PDT reply actions 3 recs
Are you kidding me?
Next to Rick Neuheisel- Pete Carroll’s the blackest whiteboy in America!!!!!! (that’s how ‘down’ the mfer is!)
"As for being a Raiders fan, I wouldn't wish that fucking shit on anybody." [the venerable OTS at Roll Bama Roll}
by BixBeiderbecke on Jul 26, 2010 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions
False.

"Remember the Maine! TO HELL WITH STANFORD!"
by CruzinBears on Jul 26, 2010 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions
That movie was EPIC!
OMIGOD, you got me on this one! Touche’, BRAVO, and all that jazz.
I MAJORLY stand corrected!
"As for being a Raiders fan, I wouldn't wish that fucking shit on anybody." [the venerable OTS at Roll Bama Roll}
by BixBeiderbecke on Jul 26, 2010 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Devil's advocate
I’m guessing the creators of the Rooney Rule would argue that the rule is trying to force the NFL to do just that.
The #1 greatest threat to America: BEARS
I generally oppose affirmative action, but I'm OK with the Rooney Rule.
The rule doesn’t force anyone to hire a coach of any particular color, or even to take race into account in hiring. It only requires that clubs give an interview to at least one minority before the hire. After that, clubs can hire whoever they please.
I think MLK would oppose a rule that specifically required racial discrimination, one form of which is affirmative action. But the Rooney Rule stops far short of that. It’s limited to the issue of exposure — that is, exposing the largely rich, old white men who own pro football teams to a talent pool of minority candidates they may not be aware of. Not that they’re out-and-out bigots, but I’m sure a lot of people in the owners’ generation and from their typical backgrounds may think blacks are great physical athletes, but that most are incapable of management or leadership duties. The object of the Rooney Rule is simply to expose those owners and execs to minority coaching candidates so that, over time, minds open and potential is realized.
by Monica's Dad on Jul 26, 2010 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions
I think MLK
would support programs that have helped a great deal to eliminate entrenched racism.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
I don't think giving minorities a chance is racist
because countless studies have repeatedly shown that without aa type programs, minorities are not given equal opportunities/access commensurate with their qualifications. Sadly, without aa programs, a lot of companies will not interview people because they have an “ethnic” name, and, sadly, the free market does not automatically fix these issues. Were this not the case, I’d agree with you.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
Private firms and individuals should be allowed to make racist hiring choices.
The Loard’s ice cream shop by my house is owned by a very friendly black man, and it seems from my experience that all of his employees are also black. My ex-wife and her husband own photo studios in Stockton and Woodland in heavily Hispanic and white areas. But they (both Korean) have mostly Korean employees.
Apparently, people naturally feel some affinity for other people who look, talk, and act like they do. Even good, kind people display this tendency. My response is that if you want to hire people of a particular race or ethnicity, and you’re a private enterprise, go right ahead. No one is forced to buy your products or patronize your establishment. If you’re an out-and-out hater, it will get around and you’ll lose business.
If the NFL wants to implement race-based policies such as the Rooney Rule, that’s their prerogative. If they went further and actually implemented discriminatory policies, that would also be their prerogative, but I suspect they’d lose a lot of fans.
Affirmative action programs (other than the Rooney Rule) trouble me in a couple ways. One, where does the government get off telling any private citizen whom they must hire? It’s unjust for the government to insert itself into one’s private associations and dealings.
And in public or private hiring, affirmative action is problematic because it requires that some people be intentionally passed over based solely on their race so that others may be hired or promoted based solely on theirs. Essentially, this is the two wrongs make a right policy. But two wrongs don’t make a right.
And yet, we have problems we really do need to address. A society of good will should want to improve the lot of all its people. If blacks or Hispanics are not succeeding in the aggregate, we should try to help in ways that don’t also harm others. A good starting point would be to dismantle the dependency society programs that have been ripping apart black communities over the past 80 years. In the 1940s, with Jim Crow laws in full force, black illegitimacy was about 15%. Today, the figure is up to roughly 70%. Part of this has to do with the breakdown of the family throughout society, but the figures for blacks are much, much worse than the rest of society. Programs meant to help blacks have had the opposite effect, encouraging young girls to have more babies to qualify for more aid while simultaneously discouraging marriage and work since both would reduce or even eliminate payments. And since unemployment insurance was established in the 1930s, black unemployment has gone up dramatically over time, too. Thomas Sowell from Stanford’s Hoover Institution has an interesting article about unemployment that also mentions how, in the 1940s, blacks actually had lower unemployment rates than whites. But people’s faith in an all-knowing government and its ability to fix all social ills led to programs that could hardly have been more effective at dis-empowering, impoverishing, and even killing blacks if that were the programs’ stated goal. We’ve told generations of minorities that they’re victims, they’re powerless, they can’t succeed without handouts and special treatment. BTW, Sowell’s article is here:
http://www.capitalismmagazine.com/index.php?news=4472
True racism can’t be eliminated by government fiat, or by reverse discrimination policies that respond to historical wrongs with contemporary wrongs. Rather, open, honest discussion and familiarity between people will lead to more tolerance — but probably never to a 100% race-blind society.
by Monica's Dad on Jul 26, 2010 6:54 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
=D this post made me smile, Monica’s dad.
CGB: Come join the LOLigarchy
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 7:03 PM PDT up reply actions
I alluded to this above
but I think it’s an interesting debate on the leave it alone, the market will sort it out vs. govt intervention in regards to discrimination. I obviously fall into the latter camp, and I think there’s a plethora of evidence to support my view, but that’s me. Linking to a conservative economist (a furd no less!!!) doesn’t do anything that me linking to a liberal economist/therorist would. I would also say that laissez-faire principles are at a nearly all-time low in legitimacy right now, so promoting social policies based upon them is an interesting choice…but that’s your call.
I also take issue with this notion that lazy black women are just having a bunch of babies to get on welfare. I’m sure it happens on occassion (like I said, I don’t think AA or any social welfare program is particularly close to 100% efficiency), but the extent to which it does has been grossly overstated for political purposes. Welfare is not nearly the disincentive to work that its claimed to be.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
Rational Choice
I never said there are lazy black women having a bunch of babies. It’s all about rational choice theory in economics. If you incentivize something, you will get more of it. If you tax it, you get less. Don’t trust capitalist economists? How about leftist ones in the Obama administration?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudge_%28book%29
Our current economic difficulties are largely the result of banks and government working hand-in-hand over the past several decades to prevent free market competition through the imposition of regulatory barriers, as well as agency capture…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture
Big government proponents have just done a better PR job blaming capitalism since they don’t rely on complex economic points that bore people to death.
by Monica's Dad on Jul 26, 2010 7:51 PM PDT up reply actions
If you think the government and the left has better marketing than corporate society…I don’t know what to tell you. I don’t think we can take this discussion any further.
Likewise, if you think that the latest economic collapse is a result of too much regulation, (especially, coming as it did, at the least regulated point in our economy since…the 20s?), then again, I don’t know what to tell you. I don’t think we can take this discussion any further.
And again, while intuitively you would think that a strong welfare state (not that America is anything remotely close to a strong welfare state) severely disincentivizes work, that’s not been the case in reality. People actually like having jobs, for a number of reasons.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
The sale of derivatives, as well as the removal of the line
between banks and insurers, were both regulatory choices made by our federal government on BEHALF of the banking industry. When business and government work together, that’s not the free market. That is crony capitalism.
When regulation is formulated to make it impossible for new competitors to enter the market and benefit only the largest businesses in an industry (as the new finance “reform” does), then it is also at odds with a truly free market. And it increases the odds that we’ll find the monopolizers that remain “too big to fail.”
Regulations are often used not to protect the public or environment, but to prevent fair competition, and to pick winners and losers. That is the opposite of a free market. And that is what we’ve had in the U.S. since the 1930s.
by Monica's Dad on Jul 26, 2010 8:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Aren’t you the one who De-Sachezised politics? What did you think would happen?
Besides it seems like everyone has kept it civil so I say meh. Off topic not too bad a thing.
Firstly, no, I am not. The Hit Squad was the one who made that decision. I discussed it with them somewhat, but it was 100% their decision.
Secondly, the Community Guidelines clearly state:
• Finally, within the comments section of main page posts, please try and stay on-topic.
I don’t necessarily think that this conversation here is a slap fight, far from it. However, it is not as relevant to the topic of the original post. I have no power in this situation to demand anything, but just hope that people try to keep the discussion focused on the Rooney Rule.
CGB's Jimmy Carter
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
The sale of derivatives, as well as the removal of the line between banks and insurers, were both regulatory choices made by our federal government on BEHALF of the banking industry. When business and government work together, that’s not the free market. That is crony capitalism.
So you’re saying that the Bush Administration acted on behalf of banks and insurance agencies? No way! I think it’s funny how you say these policies were “regulatory choices”, as a euphamism for deregulation, in order to indict government as a whole instead of right-wing economic policies.
As for the crack about financial reform, yes, I would absolutely favor reform instead of the “regulatory choices” of the Bush Administration.
Frankly, I do not want a “truly free” market. I wanted regulated capitalism. Free market economics do not account for many, many things, leave much of the population vulnerable, etc etc. I think it’s ridiculous to strive for a “truly free” market, just as you would ricidule me for striving for complete socialism (which I of course do not want).
Like I said before, I don’t think we can take this discussion further. I agree with Twist, we are really off topic by this point, and nothing I say is going to change your mind one iota. So, like CNN, I’m going to leave it there.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
Actually, it wasn't deregulation. It was regulatory change.
The banking sector has never been deregulated — that’s a fallacy. The rules have simply been manipulated to benefit AIG, Goldman Sachs, Lehman Bros., and others with deep connections to both Republican and Democratic administrations. Bankers in bed with politicians is the opposite of laissez-faire. It is corporatism much more akin to fascism or state socialism.
by Monica's Dad on Jul 27, 2010 1:51 AM PDT up reply actions
No one is forced to buy your products or patronize your establishment. If you’re an out-and-out hater, it will get around and you’ll lose business.
What if you discover and patent a cure for cancer? or AIDS? Suddenly, you’re the exclusive purveyor of this cure. If afflicted people want to live healthy, disease-free lives, they are forced to both buy your products and patronize your establishment. It’ll get around that you’re a devoted racist, but you won’t lose business because you’re the only game in town. You get to play God. You decide who you reject and to whom you sell. You get to decide who lives and who dies.
That sound OK to you?
CGB: Wasting Your Potential, Your Time, & Your Life Since 2006.
Somehow, I doubt David Duke or Joe Bob the Hater
are going to find the cure for cancer during one of their backyard BBQs. Much more likely to come from one of the publicly traded Big Pharma companies that are more transparent than any government agency. So I find that scenario extremely far-fetched.
by Monica's Dad on Jul 27, 2010 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Big Pharma companies that are more transparent than any government agency
speaking of farfetched…
You’re assuming all racism is blatant. Like CBKWit alluded to, racism can still be alive and well even if it’s not out in the open. The point is my statement was, there’s definitely room for abuse in your scenario, and that’s why (to me) it doesn’t hold water.
CGB: Wasting Your Potential, Your Time, & Your Life Since 2006.
In the 1940s, with Jim Crow laws in full force, black illegitimacy was about 15%. Today, the figure is up to roughly 70%. Part of this has to do with the breakdown of the family throughout society, but the figures for blacks are much, much worse than the rest of society.
This is due to programs? Really? A big part of the reason that the figures are so much worse than the rest of society is because Blacks have been treated worse than the rest of society. With Black men being sent to jail and prison in wildly indiscriminate numbers, being dragged out into the street and violently murdered JUST for being Black, having no judicial recourse, tons and tons of Black children were left to grow up without fathers. Without fathers as primary breadwinners, where do you think people turn for money? Crime. Selling drugs. You name it. And on top of that, when society tells you that you’ll never be anything, that you need to stay where you are and never aspire for anything better, what reason do you have to make something of yourself? When you can get sent TO PRISON for even touching a White woman, why would ever expect society to give you a fair shake? And if all this is happening in the 30’s and 40’s and 50’s, not to mention the previous century, what do you think the next generation is going to be like? Worse. That generation is gonna have even more Black men sent to jail, and more kids growing up without a father. And if they’re living in the same shitty conditions that their parents lived in, where are they going to turn for money? You guessed it. And the beat goes on and on and on…
So please don’t blame government programs for the worsening of the Black condition. There are deep, deep societal, anthropological and psychological issues at work here.
CGB: Wasting Your Potential, Your Time, & Your Life Since 2006.
All the terrible things (beatings, sent to jail for no reason etc) you mentioned happened in much, much, much greater rates prior to the civil rights movement. That’s the point of his post…
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 27, 2010 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's hard to believe blacks are treated worse today than during Jim Crow
My point is that even when actual laws were blatantly stacked against blacks, when lynchings were frequent and white society openly discriminated against them, black families and communities were more stable than they are today after removing those blatantly racist laws and implementing all kinds of laws intended to help. At some point, one needs to acknowledge failure and look for new solutions.
by Monica's Dad on Jul 27, 2010 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions
I really don’t understand how you can see things this way. Correlation is NOT causation, that’s my point. There’s a whole lot at work here that you seem unwilling to understand. All I’m hearing from you is that Blacks had it better under Jim Crow.
CGB: Wasting Your Potential, Your Time, & Your Life Since 2006.
subject line:
It’s hard to believe blacks are treated worse today than during Jim Crow.
CGB: Come join the LOLigarchy
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 27, 2010 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions
when actual laws were blatantly stacked against blacks, when lynchings were frequent and white society openly discriminated against them, black families and communities were more stable than they are today after removing those blatantly racist laws and implementing all kinds of laws intended to help.
in the 18th and 19th centuries, marriages were much more stable – hardly any of them ended in divorce. With the advent of the women’s liberation movement and the Equal Rights Amendment, divorce rates in this country have skyrocketed. Clearly, marriages were healthier and people were happier before women had any inalienable rights.
CGB: Wasting Your Potential, Your Time, & Your Life Since 2006.
by BearStage on Jul 28, 2010 1:52 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Today, the figure is up to roughly 70%. Part of this has to do with the breakdown of the family throughout society, but the figures for blacks are much, much worse than the rest of society.
CGB: Come join the LOLigarchy
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 28, 2010 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Again… what is it, exactly, that you are trying to say? That Black people don’t know how to handle themselves? That American laws have contributed to the breakdown of the Black family structure? I’m still not understanding. I’m not trying to be rude, I literally don’t understand the argument.
CGB: Wasting Your Potential, Your Time, & Your Life Since 2006.
That well-intentioned government programs designed to fix the effects of past racism with handouts and incentives for poor African Americans in fact had the opposite effect by sparking widespread family breakdown which spiraled into generational and institutionalized poverty. Re-read Monica’s Dad’s post.
Therefore these “reparation”-style programs, as evidenced by the breakdown in black society over the last 70-80 years, should be ended. AA is one of them.
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 28, 2010 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions
AA
is absolutely not a “reparation” style program. That is a completely false.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
assertion.
I actually think, though, that many people think AA and related programs are reparations, and that probably contributes to criticism of them. I think reparations are a pretty bad idea, so I understand if someone was under the misconception that that’s what AA was, they would understandably oppose them.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
Ok, so your point is the same as his. We still disagree with a wide cashm between us. Got it.
CGB: Wasting Your Potential, Your Time, & Your Life Since 2006.
Another question: are you actually listening to yourself? What, exactly, are you trying to say with your statement? No one has said that Black people are treated worse today than they were 60 years ago? Where is that coming from? From what source did you glean that inference? The only thing I can pull from your statement is an implication that Black families were better off before their integration into American society. Is that what you’re trying to say? I can’t believe that it is, so I wish you’d clarify what it is you’re actually trying to say.
What “failure” is it that needs to be acknowledged? Laws are not the issue here – as I said, there are societal issues here that need long-term solutions – this has nothing to do with welfare. Speaking of which, PLEASE remember that there are White, Hispanic, and Asian people on welfare too. Welfare is not a racial issue. Please reiterate your points in a more sensible manner.
CGB: Wasting Your Potential, Your Time, & Your Life Since 2006.
True racism can’t be eliminated by government fiat, or by reverse discrimination policies that respond to historical wrongs with contemporary wrongs. Rather, open, honest discussion and familiarity between people will lead to more tolerance — but probably never to a 100% race-blind society.
Absolutely, positively, 100 percent…
This.
Yes, I am an Old Blue. Now get off my lawn.
by Ohio Bear on Jul 27, 2010 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
communist
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
by GoldBlooded on Jul 27, 2010 10:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Furd
I still can’t believe no one else called out Monica’s Dad for using that furd prof in his argument. If I had used Rumsfeld or Harbaugh to argue a point, I hope everyone would put partisan politics aside and unite in opposition to those Dbags.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
how dare you use such a dirty word. even i would not stop so low.
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
by GoldBlooded on Jul 28, 2010 12:17 AM PDT up reply actions
*stoop
ps, monkeyhead tomorrow?
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
by GoldBlooded on Jul 28, 2010 12:18 AM PDT up reply actions
but probably never to a 100% race-blind society.
Who the hell wants a race-blind society? I sure don’t. I like being Black, and I’d like to continue to be Black, and I’d like to be recognized as such, thank you very much. I’m sure most people around this world of ours are very happy with their respective cultural heritages, and would not liek to have that part of their life simply wiped clean or ignored.
I want people to see my race – I just don’t want it to be a problem.
CGB: Wasting Your Potential, Your Time, & Your Life Since 2006.
according to some people here
you want people to see your race, therefore you are a racist.
:)
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
Racist and/or racism are such loaded, vague, and generally unhelpful terms. They cannot really account for the myriad factors that go into hiring decisions at a corporate or NFL level with a unique history of race relations. I understand that you have a variety of concerns regarding the Rooney Rule and do agree with you that it might not be the best way to achieve the goal that Wayne Rooney was trying to accomplish.
But I’m not sure you are making your point as strongly as you think by blankedly using the terms racist or racism.
CGB's Jimmy Carter
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it is racist because it takes race into account when considering a candidate for a position that has absolutely nothing to do with race. i realize that you guys are acknowledging the perceived racism exists in the nfl world today, and that the rooney rule is trying to combat it. i’d rather that people are not judged on their racial backgrounds at all, hence, i dislike the rooney rule. that is my problem with it.
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
i’d rather that people are not judged on their racial backgrounds at all, hence, i dislike the rooney rule. that is my problem with it.
Fair enough. The problem is, people are are judged on their racial backgrounds, constantly, especially pertaining to employment. Judging by your above statement, I’m sure you dislike this. How would your rather combat this problem in the NFL, instead of the Rooney Rule?
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
The problem is, people are are judged on their racial backgrounds, constantly, especially pertaining to employment.
i’m aware, and i know my views probably sound naive when i say that the standard should be “let race play no role when hiring a candidate” and it clearly is not reality, but it’s what i want. i think that the rooney rule is nothing more than lip service. why require that the candidates be of a certain race? it’s just a ridiculous concept to me, when obviously football experience matters. as for an alternate solution, i have none. let the racist hiring managers or owners die off and be replaced by sane people? i have no ideas. i just don’t think the rooney rule helps the atmosphere of removing racism.
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
Perhaps the Rooney rule is nothing more than lip service. I would contend that the large increase in minority hires for nfl coaching positions neatly overlaps with the advent of the Rooney rule, but of course correlation does not necessarily indicate causation.
However…saying that a program (like AA) or a rule (like the Rooney Rule) is “racist”, but then not suggesting any alternative to address the huge underlying problem…I would contend that that is just as “racist” as the rule in question. I do not think it is particularly fair to criticize the rule, while not addressing the underlying problem which prompted the creation of the rule in the first place.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
but my criticism of the rule lies in my belief that it is exacerbating racism in america.
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
I find it seriously hard to believe that the Rooney Rule had much relevance outside of the NFL.
What examples, in specific, can you point to where a person committed an act that you define as racist and then justified that act, at least partially, with the Rooney Rule?
CGB's Jimmy Carter
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
that has nothing to do with why i do not like the rooney rule, what are you trying to prove here?
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
You said you think it is exacerbating racism in America. I don’t see how it is affecting racism in America. I am asking for examples evidencing exacerbation of racism in America.
CGB's Jimmy Carter
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
I think what GB means is the notion that minority candidates to anything should be treated specially based on their skin color is arcane.
It exacerbates racism because it in and of itself is racism, no matter how you slice it. Fighting racism with racism…
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Like I said, I find that term to be incredibly loaded and ultimately so vague as to make it difficult to argue in response.
CGB's Jimmy Carter
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I counter that the evidence, in 2010, that white coaches are treated better than black players is similarly loaded and vague.
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions
ok, the nfl is in america. that’s what i meant by the america comment. i’m defining racism as anything that takes race into account when favoring one person over another. i’m not trying to be vague here.
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
I don’t understand how a minority candidate, who is qualified to get an interview for a specific position, getting an interview for that position, whether through color blind hiring managers or through the Rooney Rule, is racism. Racism is dependent on the oppression of others due to race — who’s being oppressed when a minority candidate is added to an interview slate?
Racism need not be “oppression” by most definitions. I (and dictionary.com) take it to mean “discrimination or prejudice based on race.”
Favoring by class is classism, favoring by age is ageism, favoring by race is racism. Moreover, who’s to say that the minority candidate is qualified to get an interview for a specific position or not? Many teams have specific candidates lined up based on schemes and specific experiences (winning a Super Bowl, coaching the best offense in the NFL etc). Why should a team who has a specific coach lined up (thereby already making everyone else, including other whites, unqualified) have to interview someone just because they’re a minority? It’s ridiculous.
I don’t think the Rooney Rule specifically “harms” anybody except those who are being given lip services interviews teams have no intention of acting upon.
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Although I'm sure the minority coaches appreciate your concern
I’d guess they are plenty happy with the rule that has led to an exponential increase in their job opportunities.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
Dictionary.com defines it as
“a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering […] a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others. "
That is much, much different from “not racially blind.”
I also see
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
CGB: Come join the LOLigarchy
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Guys, looks like we’re at an impasse. Twist, CBK, and Scootie think the Rooney Rule is a fair way of adjusting the racial balance in the NFL’s hiring practices, while myself, Goldblooded, LP and Monica’s Dad think it isn’t. No one is changing anyone’s mind, so I’m just going to leave it at that.
CGB: Come join the LOLigarchy
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 9:32 PM
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
I think I get GoldBlooded's point on that.
Things like the Rooney Rule (which, again, I have no problem with) put race front and center. They make race the subject of debate. Because a lot of folks (most?) would rather not think about race all the time, the rule and the social wounds that are opened every time it’s discussed in the media, stir up hard feelings.
I don’t think I’ve ever uttered these words in any context, but… this is one time I think AG Eric Holder was right. Americans are scared to confront race. But unlike the AG, I think a lot of the reason for that is that people throw around accusations of racism far too easily. It’s almost impossible to have a reasonable discussion. Once it’s been established that two people disagree, one or the other is invariably labeled a racist. And it just escalates from there.
The Rooney Rule is not racist. It’s strictly limited to exposure, to dialogue. It does not dictate hiring decisions. If it went further and set quotas for hiring people based on the color of their skin instead of the content of their character, or job skill, then it would be discriminatory, regardless of whether the intentions behind it are good or bad. But again, that isn’t the case.
by Monica's Dad on Jul 26, 2010 5:42 PM PDT up reply actions
i think i have a different definition of the word ‘racist’ than pretty much everybody here?
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
Apparently it’s only racism if you, like, MEAN it.
CGB: Come join the LOLigarchy
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions
The difference between racial and racist?
Do you mean to use to term “racist” to describe any racial consideration? In the strictest dictionary sense, it may be true that any consideration based on race is essentially racist, but that term really is loaded as Twist noted above. Almost everyone will take it to mean contempt or hate based on race. And I suspect that people recoil at the idea that the RR is racist because they see on its face that the rule is not meant to harm white coaches.
The rule is certainly a racial rule — even a race-conscious rule. So perhaps the disconnect?
by Monica's Dad on Jul 26, 2010 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions
I think your definition is overbroad. You seem to believe racism exists if the concept of race is considered at all. Defining racism is difficult, but I would say that it is more likely defined as:
An overt action taken that benefits a person of one race as against a person of another race wherein the decision is made in substantial part because of the races involved.
So, here I don’t think the Rooney Rule is racist. If it was a decision for hiring, a stronger argument could be made. However, this is just a decision for consideration. Consideration is not a zero sum game the same way hiring is. I think we have to focus on the action taken here.
CGB's Jimmy Carter
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
i think spazzy’s already responded to this enough times that i don’t need to type anything but this response
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
by GoldBlooded on Jul 26, 2010 11:24 PM PDT up reply actions
I’ve yet to find a single one of Spazzy’s post persuasive on this matter. But he did note that below and I appreciate the level headed discussion we’ve had here. You dirty, dirty racists!
CGB's Jimmy Carter
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
Twist, if you can’t be persuaded by a dictionary definition of racism I feel like we have very little to talk about.
CGB: Come join the LOLigarchy
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 27, 2010 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Dictionary.com defines it as
"a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering […] a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others. "
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
I also see
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
CGB: Come join the LOLigarchy
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 9:39 PM PDT
CGB: Come join the LOLigarchy
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 27, 2010 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions
exactly my point
two definitions, each side using one. You can’t accuse Twist of not seeing the light on #2 when you’re denying #1.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
Question: if ten black guys beat up a white guy because of his race, is the incident caused by racism?
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 27, 2010 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions
I guess I don’t see how giving an interview to one minority applicant is discriminatory or prejudicial. Those terms imply a negative action against some person, so I don’t see how giving a single interview to one party affects another party.
CGB's Jimmy Carter
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
Discriminate, at its root, means “choose.” Prejudice means “judging someone without full information.” In this case, minorities, (ie people who are not white), are pre-judged to be superior candidates to whites who can’t get the opportunity to interview otherwise. They are chosen to interview based on their race alone. It’s choosing and prejudging based on race. Whether or not deep-seated oppression is at hand, it’s still racism.
If owners were going to de-facto hire Steve Mariucci and then “interviewed” some bumfuck retarded janitor who also happens to be black, instead of another less qualified football coach, does this rectify the situation? Both are equally likely to get the job…
CGB: Come join the LOLigarchy
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 27, 2010 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions
If your concern is about the tokenism of a sham interview, I agree wholeheartedly with you.
And again, its not that minorities are pre-judged to be superior candidates. Its about being an equal candidate, but not having as many doors open to them. Equal does not mean superior.
CGB's Jimmy Carter
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
I don’t think it’s fair to ignore racism as a large problem in America, especially as it pertains to employment, and then criticize programs intended to rectify the problem by labeling them “racist”. That seems pretty short-sited and hypocritical, to me.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
i’m in favor of programs that give benefits based on economic factors. regardless of those programs’ intentions, they are still weighing race in their decisions on where aid is due. this is my problem with them.
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
but
many studies have shown that people are discriminated against based solely on race, not just economic circumstance. I completely agree that poverty is a huge, institutional, problem, and severely hinders opportunities. I agree that benefits should be given as regarding economic factors.
However, like I said, there are many studies that people are discriminated against based on their race – so I think that is also a problem worth addressing.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
i guess a solution would be to anonymize candidates then? in order to prevent implicit or explicit racism. have them selected on the objective relevant criteria as much as possible rather than letting a potentially racist human element come into play.
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
great idea
A number of universities did this with identical job applications, leaving the name as the only variable – sometimes that put a good ole’ American name on the resume, sometimes they put an “ethnic” name on it. The resumes containing “ethnic” names were something like 30-50% less likely to be granted an interview. And I believe the most recent of these types of studies were conducted this decade.
I absolutely agree with you though – if you make it completely anonymous (leaving off the name, etc), then this would be an interesting way to conduct hiring.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
However…saying that a program (like AA) or a rule (like the Rooney Rule) is "racist", but then not suggesting any alternative to address the huge underlying problem…
The problem is that often times the solution to “address” the problem ends up being worse than the problem itself because it changes the underlying nature of the competition and value system (in this case, for jobs). This is why housing projects have more or less miserably failed. This is why Cane Toads exist in Australia.
I don’t doubt that in the past, there may have been some race-motivated hirings or non-hirings in head coach positions. I do highly doubt that this is pervasive today given the plethora of black coaches and black coach success in the last 20 years. Given this, the presence of the Rooney Rule, is really an insult because it basically tells minority candidates, even before the interview, that “You are inferior and need help because of the color in your skin.”
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions
I would hope that AA has changed America's value system
because before 60’s legislation, minorities were explicitly second class citizens.
A smart Cal Grad, who made more money than I likely ever will and who gave me a scholarship, has this printed on his business card: The perfect is the enemy of the good. I do not think that AA related programs are perfect – far from it. I do know they are often inefficient, wasteful, can be exploited, and in some cases may even exacerbate the problem. However, I also know that minorities today enjoy far more opportunities in general and have a much strong position socioeconomically than they did 50 years ago.
It is a bit frustrating to me when people fixate on the many ways that AA programs are not perfect. I completely agree that they are not, but I think that sells short the things the progress they have helped advance. I also feel it is disingenuous to hold them to a standard at or approaching perfection. Nothing in society is perfect, but I don’t advocate for the abolition of the stock market because it concentrates wealth at the very appex of society.
I don’t want to live in a utopia because A – it would be boring and B – it’s unrealistic. But I also don’t think we should shun/oppose programs because they are not perfect. I think it’s perfectly acceptable to support programs that are good and, in general, improve our society. I think it’s pretty evident that AA programs have done that, and criticism that they aren’t perfect, or that they haven’t erased 300 years of institutionalized racism in a few decades, is short-sighted.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
There’s a big difference of opinion here. I don’t think AA is “not perfect,” I think it is completely wrong. Monica’s Dad put it best when he termed it as trying to “correct historical wrongs with contemporary wrongs.”
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 7:13 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s interesting, then, that almost all people who oppose affirmative action vehemently do not speak out against the much larger racial problem that these programs mean to redress.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
I do not think there is a larger racial problem. If there was, Cal would not be approaching 50% Asian-American.
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions
That’s a copout if I ever saw one. Can you please explain why, if there is racism against minorities presumably from the white plurality in CA (and/or Cal admissions), Cal is now a plurality of a CA minority?
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 7:22 PM PDT up reply actions
If you honestly think that the 50% Asian American population at Cal proves there are no racial problems in this country, then nothing I can present will change your mind. It’s the same as saying look at Tomlin, there’s no problem (look at Norv, it’s completely racist) which I thought we both agreed was ridiculous.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
I don’t think there are no racial problems in this country, but I do think we differ completely on what the solutions are. You prefer large government social programs. I prefer education at a young age and really nothing else.
And yes, Asian Americans do nicely illustrate how ridiculous AA can be if it is targeted towards “minorities.”
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 9:18 PM PDT up reply actions
I think education is extremely important
I wish we would invest more in it.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
I don’t think there are no racial problems in this country
I do not think there is a larger racial problem.
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 7:19 PM PDT
CGB: Wasting Your Potential, Your Time, & Your Life Since 2006.
The second was with regard to AA policies governing college admissions.
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 27, 2010 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions
and just like Norv Turner proves the entire NFL is racist
the asian population at Cal proves the entire college admissions process is completely unbiased.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
If the college admissions process is systematically biased in favor of white people over all minorities, and whites outnumber asians, a minority, 5 to 1 in California, why and how are there more asians than whites at Cal?
I’m genuinely curious to hear your response, and I’d hope it’s not something pithy about Norv Turner or Mike Tomlin or something…
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 27, 2010 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Fine, I won't draw the obvious Norn Turner analogy
I will instead reiterate that you cannot take one example and extrapolate it to an entire system.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
You still didn’t answer my question…
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 27, 2010 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions
you are correct
You also don’t find me grilling you on the paltry rate of african american students at Cal, and why that proves the entire US college admissions system is completely racist, because that would be ridiculous. Sort of like Mike Tomlin, and Norv Turner.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
You still didn’t answer my question…
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by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 27, 2010 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions
No, CBK, it isn’t. You keep dodging and dodging and I can see that you are so entrenched in your backwards theory that white people are systematically favored over minorities in college admissions that you are willing to overlook the key point that some “minorities” are VASTLY overrepresented in US colleges. If systematic white bias were in place this simply could not happen.
When folks stop ignoring this and focus on the real causes of misrepresentation in US college admissions we MIGHT see progress in this area. Until then, none will be made. Good effing day sir.
Cue Norv Turner.
CGB: Come join the LOLigarchy
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 27, 2010 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions
you keep clinging to this absurd notion
that the asian american population at Cal proves there is no major racial discrimination in the US. You are so entrenched in your backwards, simplistic theory that all non-whites are of the same circumstance and that one instance of success proves the entire system is unbiased that you are willing to overlook all examples that run counter to your view.
When folks stop pretending that one example is applicable to the entire country and proves the system “works”, then we MIGHT see progress. Until then, people of this ilk will attempt to reverse all the progress that has been made. Good effing day sir.
Cue single instance of minority overcoming barriers which proves all racism is dead.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
I’ve at least attempted to answer all your questions and respond to all your points. You still have not responded to mine. I know you’ll say its because I’m immature or that I can’t argue or whatnot, but the reality is that you can’t, because it proves my point.
Still waiting for your answer, however.
CGB: Come join the LOLigarchy
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 27, 2010 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m still waiting for you to move beyond this absurd notion that one instance of success proves there is no racial discrimination. That was your first point here (Tomlin) and your latest point (asian population at Cal). There’s no point in discussing anything if you honestly think that that’s logically sound. I know you’ll say that it’s because I can’t argue or whatnot, but the reality is that you can’t, because this issue is so much more complex than you’re attempting to paint it.
I think you should take your own advice from last night. Let’s drop it.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
CBK, I addressed all your points. I do believe that instances of peak success (Mike Tomlin) and sustained success (Dungy, Green, Smith etc…) proves there is not enough discrimination to warrant racist practices by the governing body. It’s akin to saying “black people will never get anywhere in America” and refute Barack Obama as an example.
Those are my real beliefs, and I backed them up with examples, albeit from a limited sample size. You can’t even do that, since you can’t really pinpoint the problem, or, for that matter, the solution. I really don’t think that my notion is the absurd one at this point.
It’s ludicrous for you to not even answer my question, if it is so incredibly obvious, in your eyes, that this example (which is not one example, really, but hundreds of thousands of examples which make up the general student-age population) is so unbelievably wrong.
CGB: Come join the LOLigarchy
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 27, 2010 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions
I do not think you are intentionally making ridiculous leaps for arguments sake – I believe you when you say these are your real beliefs. Like I have said before (and you said last night), we’re not getting anywhere, so I suggest we drop it.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
Well, I guess my ridiculous leaps are so ridiculously ridiculous you can’t tell me why they’re so ridiculous.
Which is ridiculous.
CGB: Come join the LOLigarchy
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 27, 2010 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m sorry to have to disagree with you, CBKWit, but if my memories of my days in Berkeley are accurate, you are the Communist here, while GoldBlooded and Spazzy are the Fascists.
Exit, Pursued By A Bear
Bicyclist
CGB: Come join the LOLigarchy
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 27, 2010 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Industrialist?
CGB: Come join the LOLigarchy
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 27, 2010 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions
microcosms?
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
by GoldBlooded on Jul 26, 2010 11:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Independent of the question posed by CBKWit, which I join in, another thought that I had is that race isn’t coming into account when considering the candidate for the position.
Race is coming into account when considering the candidate for the interview for the position. This is a clear difference to me, which I think renders some of your concerns moot, while also raising other issues, such as the sham nature of these interviews.
CGB's Jimmy Carter
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
right. if we’re assuming that the process by which an nfl coach is hired “good ol’ boy” style, then the legitimacy of the “interviews” are a charade for the media and the general public, as the candidate will have been chosen well beforehand. i’d like to see that practice ended as well : /
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
perhaps they are
perhaps they are actually effective too. My guess is that the truth is in the middle – there have been some pretty obvious charade interviews (Lions and Seahawks), but we also have many more minorities as head coaches in the NFL. I would suspect that its effectiveness is similar to a lot of AA type rules and programs – plenty of inefficiency, some unethical behavior, doing lots of things for show…but also quite effective in granting opportunities to those qualified people who otherwise would have been ignored because of explicit or implicit racism. I don’t think AA type programs have to be 100% perfect, every time, in order for them to be effective or relevant. Perfection seems to be a pretty unrealistic expectation for any program or enterprise, public or private.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
The biggest misconception is that affirmative action is racial discrimination. It’s the recognition that there’s been systematic discrimination against one group, and that remedies need to be used to redress it. It’s the most conservative way to do so, which is why President Nixon was in favor of it.
And you’re historically wrong about MLK’s position on affirmative action.
by BlackandOldGold on Jul 26, 2010 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
No he wouldn’t. That’s as superficial a reading of MLK as just reading the first line of the Declaration of Independence and thinking America has always lived up to it. If you’re going to quote MLK, make sure you also quote him saying:
* If a city has a 30% Negro population, then it is logical to assume that Negroes should have at least 30% of the jobs in any particular company, and jobs in all categories rather than only in menial areas.
—1968 Playboy magazine interview
by BlackandOldGold on Jul 26, 2010 9:44 PM PDT up reply actions
There’s a reason that speech is (at least coloquially) entitled “I Have A Dream.”
I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
It’s been 40+ years, but that day ain’t here yet.
CGB: Wasting Your Potential, Your Time, & Your Life Since 2006.
I think that the end goal should be to open up the NFL job network such that qualifications are the main deciding factor. This would mean eliminating the Unconscious Bias termed by the NYU.
Do we need the Rooney Rule? I would argue that the Rule is effective in opening the job network. I’ve only done cursory research, but it seems commonly agreed that more black coaches have been hired since the Rule. It’s tough to toss away something that’s effective.
Does the Rooney Rule also create sham interviews and punish honesty? You can probably get some good agreement that it does.
I think the question a lot of people think of is if the Rooney Rule is effective “enough”. Unfortunately, the Rule doesn’t seem to come with an exact goal to shoot for, so "enough" is up for opinion.
(Incidently, why aren’t more rules/laws written with targets? Like Law X to end by Time Y and/or by meeting Target Z. It seems to me to make it easier to argue if the rule/law is "effective enough", and spurs people to research the results.)
I’d also like to add that there’s a new addition to the Rooney Rule which I think helps with injecting more people into the job network: Since June 2009, the Rooney Rule also applies to senior football operations positions in the NFL. Seems like a very solid addition to the Rooney Rule.
Borderline Political
I don’t think it’s a good idea haha.
I don’t like aff action nor the Rooney Rule.
I agree with the Martin Luther line on this page, props.
Don't Tread on Me.
by THESeymoreBear on Jul 26, 2010 10:46 AM PDT reply actions
So, you want to nail 96 Theses to my door? The extra Theses is for BakBak!
CGB's Jimmy Carter
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
Oh Twist
I hate loving you
Don't Tread on Me.
by THESeymoreBear on Jul 26, 2010 9:47 PM PDT up reply actions
no u
"Remember the Maine! TO HELL WITH STANFORD!"
by CruzinBears on Jul 26, 2010 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions
i am also dumb, but at least i am not the racist rooney rule
Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!
by GoldBlooded on Jul 26, 2010 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions
I am anti-affirmative taction and anti-Rooney rule.
That it even exists is truly an insult to minority NFL candidates and an arcane throwback to race-based hiring. The color of someone’s skin should have zero to do with whether they get an interview. Zero. And the success of minority coaches in the NFL only hammers this home.
CGB: Come join the LOLigarchy
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 1:40 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I’m always amazed how people can project how minorities are “insulted” by efforts to open historically closed areas in American society. Insulted for being qualified, recognizing that they’ve been systematically kept out, and are now given an opportunity to plead their case? If that’s insulting, then insult me some more.
by BlackandOldGold on Jul 26, 2010 9:46 PM PDT up reply actions
I object to the term dirty. Whore, I like!
by BlackandOldGold on Jul 26, 2010 9:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Whats worse? You had the same joke as me or I beat you to it?
CGB's Jimmy Carter
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
If I’m reading you correctly, you want guaranteed separate, but equal, interviews? Just want to make sure I have that straight…
CGB: Come join the LOLigarchy
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 26, 2010 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions
BTW, you’re missing the point if you associate the ultimate success of the black coaches as somehow delegitimizing the Rooney Rule. The point is that without the Rooney Rule, which simply identifies that black coaches haven’t even been in the qualified pool in the past, these black coaches wouldn’t have been given the opportunity to present their case and be hired. Whether they succeed or fail is immaterial to the Rooney Rule.
by BlackandOldGold on Jul 26, 2010 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions
That is a fallacy
You can’t use lack of evidence as evidence.
Don't Tread on Me.
by THESeymoreBear on Jul 26, 2010 9:49 PM PDT up reply actions
The fallacy is using causation as correllation (Ha! I remember my freshman year Stat!).
by BlackandOldGold on Jul 26, 2010 9:50 PM PDT up reply actions
And by the way, the evidence isn’t lacking. There have only been TEN black head coaches hired in the NFL in its history.
by BlackandOldGold on Jul 26, 2010 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions
And if you want to use that as "evidence"
there is only a 10% population of black people in the united states.
Similarily—-if you want this, then I want MORE white people as running backs!!!
See the reverse racism?
I really do enjoy this site, everyone here can share points and not be fucking idiots.
Go CAL
Don't Tread on Me.
by THESeymoreBear on Jul 26, 2010 9:57 PM PDT up reply actions
EVEN MORE
only 5% of america is MALE BLACK
and only 3% of that is adult age!
Don't Tread on Me.
by THESeymoreBear on Jul 26, 2010 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions
There is no such thing as “reverse racism”. There’s only racism, which is the systematic discrimination of a group based on race. But let’s take your premise of reverse racism. So you’re arguing that black coaches, who we agree have been a tiny pool of the coaches in the NFL, and even tinier group of GMs, and a non existent part of the ownership, have all somehow used their power to systematically discriminated against white running backs?
by BlackandOldGold on Jul 26, 2010 10:03 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
Im only insinuating the exact opposite of what you have said.
Which is basically all the white coaches have “systematically discriminated against black _______ _______ players”
And yes there is such thing as reverse racism, it is cultural contextual.
In our current world Racism—-refers to “race” such as non white.
So the only appropriate term would have to be the reverse.
How do you not see that saying “there has only been 10 black head coaches in the NFL”
is a rediculous arguement
there are 0 starting running backs in the NFL (that I can remember off the top of my head) but I would feel rediculous to say it is because of some deep seeded racism, rather that the black men are better.
wait wait I know your going to say that "oh okay so all of the white coaches are “better” than the black ones"
obviously no, but um—-steelers head coach is black = superbowl
I have to give the benefit of the doubt to most all people that HIRE coaches in the NFL that they are picking whomever they think would be BEST for their team to win. I really don’t think MULTI-MILLION/BILLIONAIRES care about race, rather its to make them just filthier.
I am sure there are racist team leaders out there, but forcing them to “interview a minority” won’t do anything.
They will eventually die.
The more we EMPHASIZE race, the more we EMPHASIZE that there is a difference, which there is not.
Don't Tread on Me.
by THESeymoreBear on Jul 26, 2010 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
sorry for that :) haha
Don't Tread on Me.
by THESeymoreBear on Jul 26, 2010 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions
If you think Al Davis is a rational actor
in the economic sense then I think you are giving way too much credit to NFL owners.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
The Al Davis defense is the last resort of the scoundrel!
CGB's Jimmy Carter
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
His one defense
he saw that Lane Kiffin was a douchebag before the rest of us. And we now return to square one, taking potshots at former or current usc coaches. We have come full circle!
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
haha no
but also I said—-will be dead soon…
Don't Tread on Me.
by THESeymoreBear on Jul 26, 2010 10:20 PM PDT up reply actions
This is a laughable argument. So you’re saying that the fact that no NFL owners hired an African American coach between Fritz Pollard in the ’20s until 1979 was simply because there were no African American coaches that fit the qualifications of being the best for a team to win during that period? Really? That benefit of the doubt extends to a fifty year period of zilch, nada, black coaches hired?
And as for your basic premise on the “reverse racism”, no one claims white running backs are discriminated against because it hasn’t occurred. There hasn’t been a systematic lack of opportunity sited. There hasn’t been a conspiracy by blacks in positions to deny them an opportunity.
Identifying race in racial issues points to solutions. The pollyanna idea that if we simply ignore it and things will work out, tends to only work if you’re on the side that doesn’t have to wait for things to work out.
by BlackandOldGold on Jul 26, 2010 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions
incorrect
the civil war, and then the civil rights act, hundreds of years after slaves were brought to America, were exactly how the blacks scripted it. The free market worked it out!
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
Yeah, and tell my mother, who went to segregated schools her whole life, that it’ll all somehow work out. She would disagree vehemently.
by BlackandOldGold on Jul 26, 2010 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions
“Look, you guys are doing a great job on the Pyramids. Why want anything else? I’m sure this’ll all work itself out very soon.”
CGB's Jimmy Carter
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
Exactly. Plus, don’t you know you’ll get your reward in heaven? Isn’t that enough?
by BlackandOldGold on Jul 26, 2010 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions
he married that hot chick from Law and Order
she probably wanted to marry Tiki Barber but was forced to give a token interview with Seahorn. Guess he was qualified after all!
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
there is only a 10% population of black people in the united states.
a) it’s 12% now.
b) the national percentage is completely irrelevant. What matters is the proportion of black coaches to black players in the NFL.
CGB: Wasting Your Potential, Your Time, & Your Life Since 2006.
Can you explain why that is important?
CGB: Come join the LOLigarchy
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 27, 2010 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions
No one’s trying to make the NFL look proportional to the American population – that’s clearly impossible, as the VAST majority of NFL athletes are either White or Black, and the country is obviously not made up that way. The point is simply to make sure that everyone’s got a fair shot. Given the vast amount of Black players that have played over the decades, and the relatively tiny number of Black coaches that been employed, it has been deduced that some institutional racism may indeed has been and may continue to be present. The Rooney Rule is meant to help implement and/or help along a cultural shift regarding this issue. So, yeah, that’s why that proportion is important.
CGB: Wasting Your Potential, Your Time, & Your Life Since 2006.
Guys, looks like we’re at an impasse. Twist, CBK, and Scootie think the Rooney Rule is a fair way of adjusting the racial balance in the NFL’s hiring practices, while myself, Goldblooded, LP and Monica’s Dad think it isn’t. No one is changing anyone’s mind, so I’m just going to leave it at that.
CGB: Come join the LOLigarchy
Hey where was I in the "isn't"
Don't Tread on Me.
by THESeymoreBear on Jul 26, 2010 9:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry, I’ve been on vacation in Mexico, so I didn’t have a chance to respond through the flow of the thread.
by BlackandOldGold on Jul 26, 2010 9:46 PM PDT reply actions
Scootie is right. Spazzy is wrong. I have spoken. And now, I am going to resume my search for some really outstanding Doogie Howser fan fiction.
Exit, Pursued By A Bear
And now, I am going to resumemy search for some really outstanding Doogie Howser fan fiction.throwing my cats at cars as they drive by.
fixed.
You hear that LeonPowe? CalBear81 thinks you’re wrong!
CGB: Come join the LOLigarchy
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 27, 2010 1:17 AM PDT up reply actions
It wouldn’t be the first time. My opinion in this matter, however, only applies to the Rooney Rule in specific, not to the idea of AA in general.

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