Should the Pac-10 Tournament Rotate Away From Staples Center?
Cal will be taking on a highly motivated and desperate UCLA team tomorrow. While the Bruins aren't very good this season, if they catch the Bears on a bad shooting night, they can very much pull a Michael Roll out of their hat and score a huge upset and batter us to a dreaded 8/9 seed. If UCLA gets by Cal they wouldn't have a hard matchup with either Washington or the Furd they stand a good chance to earn the NCAA automatic bid (so they get squashed in the first round, but that's beside the point). Not impractical to see the Bruins winning three straight in that scenario.
Hopefully our guys will be well-rested enough to be aggressive on both sides of the ball, attack the basket and open up the 3 point line, as well as stiffen up their defensive effort (we played much weaker defensively than it shows on the statsheet against the Ducks). This was pretty much what we did the final 30 minutes in Pauley--Markhuri Sanders-Frison forced Reeves Nelson into his worst game of the season and Jorge Gutierrez harrassed Roll nonstop, and the four seniors did their thing on the offensive end. If Cal can replicate what they did that Saturday, they should win; if they replicate what they did at Haas they'll have a nailbiter to the end. The Bruins might not be great this season, but they're not going to be easy to put down.
But the point of this post isn't so much to talk about the game. It's to talk about the intrinsic advantage the LA schools get every year by having to play this tournament at Staples. Bruins Nation pointed out a huge ticket opportunity for Pac-10 students.
Just got this email from Morgan Center:
"In celebration of our 10th Anniversary we are pleased to announce that for Friday night’s Semi-Final Games we are able to offer all Pac-10 Conference students the opportunity to come out and support their team in the conference tournament at STAPLES Center for just $10.00," Lee Zeidman, General Manager, STAPLES Center.
All UCLA students have to do is visit the STAPLES Center Box Office and show a valid student ID, and for $10 will receive a ticket in the 300 Upper Concourse for both of Friday night’s games. Also students can also visit www.ticketmaster.com and enter the special promotions code "STUDENT10".
Of course, only one student body is in place to take advantage of this offer this year--our powder blue little brothers (whether the students will take advantage of that offer is another matter altogether). Also, the past four seasons and six of the eight seasons the round-robin's been held at Staples, USC or UCLA has qualified for the final (although UCLA was the #1 seed two of those seasons, USC got there three times as the 4th, 6th and 7th seeds. Hmmm....)
Lute Olson and Ernie Kent have urged the rotation of Pac-10 sites year by year. With both of them now in Pac-10 coaching heaven, it's time to lend credence to these ideas.
Let's say we rotate it to five sites every year. If FSN was insistent on keeping Staples on that rotation, then we should at least offer the same advantages to other Pac-10 schools besides the LA teams year by year. Thankfully, we have a lot of pro arenas all along the Left Coast that can be suited well for these tourneys.
My proposal would be a five year rotation of these arenas:
1) Washington--Key Arena in Seattle (where the Sonics used to play)
2) Oregon--Rose Garden in Portland (where the Blazers play)
3) Bay Area--Oracle Arena in Oakland (where the Warriors play)
4) LA--Staples Center in LA (where the Lakers/Clippers play)
5) Arizona--US Airways Arena in Phoenix (where the Suns play)
Advantages
Although two Pac-10 schools will always have an advantage in these cases, at least it distributes the unfairness around to everyone. The year it's in Portland the Oregon schools will have the most fans, the year it's in Seattle the Washington schools, etc. At least we have parity in that regard.
More energetic crowds. Sorry SoCal fans, but Staples Center crowds are some of the worst in pro basketball, and they haven't been much better for the Pac-10 tourney. Although I don't know if crowds in other places would be better, the tickets would probably be cheaper, and more basketball fans would be willing to go. Staples was pathetically empty for most of the quarterfinals.
Gives non-LA teams hope that they can score upsets thanks to the home crowd. Hey, if a bad UCLA team could potentially play two semi-home games, is that any fair to bad teams from the Northwest that always have to make the sojourn south? Why not let USC and UCLA go on a road trip in March? Think 9th seed Wazzu would've played a little better in Seattle? This is more of a variance issue than anything, but it is worth noting that historically average USC teams have made it to the tournament championship rounds.
(Actually, the more I think about this, this is probably a disadvantage. Hmmm.)
Other student bodies besides the Trojans and Bruins can participate in the revelry of the tournament. Isn't it important to get the students involved in the experience? How many Cal fans have been able to make the journey during the middle of midterm season to and from LA, and how many have rued the consequences of such a perilous trek? UCLA fans just need to take a few buses; USC fans could WALK to the game. You don't think this is an unfair advantage?
Disadvantages
Location. Really, the only reason there isn't a thought of rotating sites is because FSN's headquarters are right down the street from Staples. There isn't much of a reason why they couldn't broadcast the game from any other big arena other than institutional inertia.
Likely less ticket revenue (Staples prices are some of the plushiest in the world)--no matter how many people show up at other arenas. Which is probably the reason this plan will never ever ever happen no matter how embarrassingly empty the arena looks for every game.
The glamour of Staples just won't be matched by any other arena. I'm guessing the athletes are super-hyped to go to LA and Hollywood as opposed to Portland, Phoenix, Seattle, etc.
The rotation idea probably is too hectic and creative for people to plan for, so you might think a neutral arena is better (Arco Arena in Sacramento comes to mind, which favors the Bay Area slightly but not significantly; maybe a tournament in Vegas's Thomas and Mack Center? Lots of alum and students would be thrilled at a Vegas vacation in the middle of their hoops fix.)
What are your thoughts on rotating the Pac-10 tournament sites? Good or bad? Feasible or unfeasible?
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87 comments
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Comments
I’d actually prefer to not have the pac-10 tournament at all to be honest.
by LeonPowe on Mar 12, 2010 3:24 AM PST reply actions 5 recs
win
but then the conference championship will be meaningless, stripped of its historic role as seed determiner for the tourney!
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Bengie Molina: "I don't understand why they didn't want to commit to another year, with my numbers and my experience and things like that." Brain Sabean: "He's certainly welcomed back with open arms".
carp (paraphrased): "117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"
by natteringnabob on Mar 12, 2010 7:30 AM PST up reply actions
Not if the regular season conference champ gets the auto-bid to the NCAA tourney.
"atomsareenough—cleaning up CGB one day at a time until we finally get that press pass." - Berkelium97
by atomsareenough on Mar 12, 2010 10:43 AM PST up reply actions
No tournament in hoops and no conference championship game in football are the way to go....
Too bad there is less money to be made with said approach. Greed ruins all good things.
by 33SwisherSweet on Mar 12, 2010 7:48 AM PST up reply actions
I don't think it would result in loss of revenue at all
In fact, it would likely increase revenue. I’m guessing the tickets are so dang expensive because it’s a dang expensive facility. I think you’d be much more likely to sell more tickets thanks to the scarcity of having it in your area once every five years. That’s a long wait in between.
Yeah, I totally agree – plus I think fans in Seattle, Portland, the Bay Area or Phoenix (the obvious locations) would be really excited to have the tournament. Ticket revenue isn’t very important to an event like this – but it isn’t like TV ratings are going to be lower in a different city.
I think the understated part of this though is that while L.A. provides some advantage to UCLA (at least when they are good and their fans care) or USC, it provides far less advantage than any other location would provide to the local team. A tournament in Portland is going to be all UO fans, in Seattle all UW.
by Tedfordisgod on Mar 12, 2010 7:11 AM PST up reply actions
I second your locations
but I don’t think OSU fans would have much problem going to Portland, or either AZ school filling up Phoenix.
At least then all the teams have a chance for a semi-home court advantage (without having a true home court advantage) rather than keeping in in LA forever. Only UW would even be playing in its home city.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Bengie Molina: "I don't understand why they didn't want to commit to another year, with my numbers and my experience and things like that." Brain Sabean: "He's certainly welcomed back with open arms".
carp (paraphrased): "117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"
by natteringnabob on Mar 12, 2010 7:35 AM PST up reply actions
True – I didn’t mean that OSU/WSU or the Arizona schools wouldn’t turn up big for a “home” tourney. Just that people in L.A. (or probably the Bay Area) aren’t going to turn out on a Thursday for a fairly meaningless tournament they way they might other places. For that reason, I think L.A. is a fairly “neutral” site. But I we really cared about a neutral site – we would go with Vegas or Hawaii or Mexico City or whatever other site would be truly neutral.
by Tedfordisgod on Mar 12, 2010 7:42 AM PST up reply actions
I suspect
that holding the tournament here, or San Diego, would attract quite a few snowbird-type travelers from northern states. There were a bunch of people from ARKANSAS here for the baseball games last weekend, and I know someone from my workplace goes down to the tournament every year.
I think a lot of those people might enjoy rotating through San Diego, Seattle, Portland, and Arizona.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Bengie Molina: "I don't understand why they didn't want to commit to another year, with my numbers and my experience and things like that." Brain Sabean: "He's certainly welcomed back with open arms".
carp (paraphrased): "117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"
by natteringnabob on Mar 12, 2010 7:49 AM PST up reply actions
This is a fair proposal for the teams
but suspect the conference would be frightened of potential adverse financials.
1. Staples increases the upside. By keeping the event in Los Angeles the conference anchors the event in the biggest population center in the conference, increases the chances of generally pretty good LA teams playing more game and then takes advantage of front-running and band-wagon tendencies of USC and UC Los Angeles fans, and grasps the slippery cache of hollywood etc.
2. Other venues may have serious problems selling tickets if the local team is not performing. Cougs v. Card in Portland cannot give the conference a lot of warm feelings.
3. But note what the ACC does – three of the last six years (counting this year) the tourney is held in North Carolina, and it will be in Greensboro five of the next six (counting this year). NC and Duke are likely to go deep in the tourney and have rabid fans, Wake Forest and NC State are also in the neighborhood, and it is not too far from Clemson, G Tech, Virginia & Virginia Tech (pity poor Boston College and Miami). Despite this, they move the event around a bit (schedule below).
http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/051706aaa.html
jh
Vegas is an intriguing idea
I suspect that having the conference tournament at a “destination city” like Las Vegas might ramp up the attendance. Quite the fun weekend for fans: go the Pac-10 tournament, hang around for the weekend in a fun city, watch Selection Sunday, and then place your bets on the tourney before you go home.
The WCC held its conference tournament in Vegas this year. It looked well attended on TV. Granted, It was at a place called the Orleans Arena, a much smaller venue than the Thomas & Mack. But still, I was surprised at the number of students-age looking people who made the trip (especially from Gonzaga). Effect of the tournament site?
Truth be told, I consider Pac-10 metro areas (L.A., S.F. Bay Area, Seattle, Phoenix, and even Portland) to already be “destination cities.” But for Pac-10 fans, these places are familiar and aren’t necessarily going to be seen as a reason to pick up and go to the Pac-10 tournament if you weren’t already inclined to go.
I am a Vereenian.
The problem with the Vegas idea is timing. I know of way too many geeks who plan a year in advance to take time off in March to head to Vegas for a few days during the NCAA tournament. If they had to choose between going a week earlier for the Pac-10 tourney, they would choose not to.
By sheer proximity to the Big Tourney, the Pac-10 Tourney would suffer way too much if it were in Vegas.
Whose Axe?
OUR AXE!
boo
for letting revenue go to a non-Pac-10 state!
Also, you would be turning Oregon’s athletes loose in Nevada, and I think that’s really not fair to Nevada.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Bengie Molina: "I don't understand why they didn't want to commit to another year, with my numbers and my experience and things like that." Brain Sabean: "He's certainly welcomed back with open arms".
carp (paraphrased): "117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"
by natteringnabob on Mar 12, 2010 7:50 AM PST up reply actions
yeah, the state thing is why it will never happen in Vegas – With 8 state universities, no way they let the revenue get away.
by Tedfordisgod on Mar 12, 2010 7:52 AM PST up reply actions
Personally...
…I’d go for the Tank when in the Bay Area. Nicer, newer factility, with more options for getting there (Caltrain and VTA instead of one BART stop).
Definitely rotate the sites. The only time the SEC tournament ever gets interesting is when a tornado hits it or it moves out of the Georgia Dome. The fact that it is in Nashville this year is in no way germane to my preferences.
Although, to be honest, I miss the days of college where the Big Ten and Pac-10 were still making regular-season games count and eschewing the tournament. Nobody will ever go away from a conference tournament again, but I do regret the loss of the uniqueness factor…
"Well, if that ain't a show, I'll kiss your ass." - Gov. Jim Folsom Sr. (D-AL), 1948-52
hey
I’m sure the city could find the baskets and get the Cow Palace ALL GUSSIED UP for the game!
Only one bus ride from a BART station!
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Bengie Molina: "I don't understand why they didn't want to commit to another year, with my numbers and my experience and things like that." Brain Sabean: "He's certainly welcomed back with open arms".
carp (paraphrased): "117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"
by natteringnabob on Mar 12, 2010 8:15 AM PST up reply actions
I agree
If the Pac-10 tournament has to exist (which I think it does) it should be rotated.
Also, while Oracle is good I think that HP would be a bit better. It’s good enough for the Women’s Tourney and the March Madness Regionals. Key, Rose, and US Airways all work well in their respective areas.
by Mallrat92204 on Mar 12, 2010 10:27 AM PST up reply actions
It’d be fair, but $$$ will never let it happen.
I think even the agreement to have the tournament itself was deadlocked until the proposal to move it to Staples swung the votes of the LA schools.
The best idea I heard for the whole conference tourney/regular season bid issue is to give two automatic bids to each conference; one to the regular season champ, one to the conference tourney champ. If the same team wins both, they either get a seeding boost, or a bye (if in the 96 team format).
That’s what I remember, too: The LA schools wouldn’t sign on to a tournament unless it was permanently hosted in LA.
I would imagine that the players would love the Staple experience over some of the other venue mentioned, even if the arena is nearly empty. It’s a draw to get top prospects to play in the Pac-10.
by LEastCoastBears on Mar 12, 2010 9:06 AM PST reply actions
HP Pavilion
I agree with Vandy
HP Paviion in SJ would be great site
It can't be emphasized enough
so I’ll do it again.
The tournament is a farce, just a cynical money grab that had to be in Los Angeles so UCLA would vote for it. Ironically, this year, it might actually help them.
Conference tournaments are stupid anyway, but it’s especially dumb in the Pac-10, which has no history of such things compared to the ACC.
Holding the tournament in one town every year is absurd. It’s a clear advantage for the host teams. I don’t know if UCLA will take advantage of it, but that’s not really the point.
I only like conference postseason tournaments if my team wins and gets an undeserved NCAA tournament bid. But the real champion is the regular season champion.
by bear88 on Mar 12, 2010 9:36 AM PST reply actions 3 recs
One fact I think might be overlooked, is that Los Angeles (probably) has the highest concentration of alums outside of their home region. For example, I’d speculate LA is second to the Bay area for most Cal alums, second to Arizona for UA & ASU alums, and either 2/3 to Seattle & Portland for the Northwest schools. Therefore, the Pac-10 alumni base is the both the greatest in number and most diverse.
I voted for “neutral site” solely because of the possibility of having the tournament at Arco. Go Sacramento! But if I couldn’t have it in Sacramento for my own selfish reasons, then I think it should be rotated. If fans knew the tournament would only be in their area once every five years, I think lots more people would show up, because it would be an event. There wouldn’t be that dead, empty arena that makes the whole tournament seem sort of depressing, and can’t possibly improve the image of the Pac-10 around the rest of the country. It would also, of course, prevent the institutionalized unfairness of favoring the LA teams at the expense of everyone else.
Snobby Chick - Senior Division
very good point
about the rotation enticing locals who can count on it once every 5 years. I think plenty of fans would look forward to going to Seattle once every 5 years, or San Diego, or whatever.
I dunno about Sac though! Have they ever hosted an NCAA regional?
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Bengie Molina: "I don't understand why they didn't want to commit to another year, with my numbers and my experience and things like that." Brain Sabean: "He's certainly welcomed back with open arms".
carp (paraphrased): "117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"
by natteringnabob on Mar 12, 2010 12:55 PM PST up reply actions
Yup. I’ve been to Arco twice for NCAA action: Once I watched Clifford Rozier destroy somebody while playing for Louisville, then got really excited when the Warriors drafted him. Turns out he sucked. Then I got to watch final four bound UCLA barely escape a 2nd round matchup with Indiana
The #1 greatest threat to America: BEARS
I need a couple tix for Cal-UCLA tomorrow night
Anyone have extras?
With regard to the rotation of sites, I think LA is easy to fly into and if it were rotated, it would have to be to bigger cities with easy flights/hotels. Going to non-neutral sites like WSU, OSU, or even Stanford would be a pain in the ass to get to for all the media, fans, etc.
I am a proud member of LB Chris Martin's fan group: the Martinis
you mean tonight
no cal bear? no care
by EchoOfSilence on Mar 12, 2010 11:10 AM PST up reply actions
fixed
Stanford [sic] would be a pain in the ass
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Bengie Molina: "I don't understand why they didn't want to commit to another year, with my numbers and my experience and things like that." Brain Sabean: "He's certainly welcomed back with open arms".
carp (paraphrased): "117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"
by natteringnabob on Mar 12, 2010 12:58 PM PST up reply actions
some other reasons for staying in los angeles
(note: I am in favor of disbanding the conference tourney, first and foremost. After that, I would like to see the sites rotated.)
- In addition to FSN being close by to Staples the title sponsor—Pacific Life—has its home offices in Newport Beach. The corporate brass there can’t treat their executives to complimentary suites if the game is held in Seattle.
- I buy the “upside” analysis by Jake888 above. IF fans are motivated, IF the Pac-10 teams are of the highest quality (like ACC or Big East good), then a tournament in Los Angeles, at Staples, can only matched by the Big East tournament at Madison Square Garden in NYC.
- Los Angeles is easily the largest metropolitan area in a conference represented by very large metros. The Greater Los Angeles area has a population of more than 17 million, and that doesn’t even include San Diego-Tijuana bi-national conurbation with 5 million more residents. To keep with the math, Southern California has a population greater than the combined states of Washington, Oregon, and Arizona plus the SF Bay Area MSA.
- Lastly, and probably the most important (and shocking point): tickets. Boo! Staples was empty! Yeah-but, what other venue-site can attract an attendance of 13,000 on a Thursday night? That’s right, the announced attendance during the Washington-OSU game was 12,255 according to ESPN blogger Arkash Markazi.
FLAGGED for ESPN blogger being a big fat liar.
There is no way in hell there were 12,255 at Staples yesterday. That would be nearly 2/3 full. It was obvious on TV was at the very most 1/3 full, which would indicate something in the order of 6,000 people if we’re being generous (capacity is 19K).
It was the announced attendance at the game. You had to have been there to have heard it. You can’t call someone relaying information a liar.
I’m sure the “count” methodology is flawed, just like most other sporting events. Undoubtedly it was for paid tickets. Undoubtedly it included those who purchased all-session passes. Because of the last point, I wouldn’t be surprised if that were the total for all tickets sold for all games that day, meaning if there were no fan carryovers from game-to-game, that’s an average of about 3,000 fans per game. Lastly, if you’ve ever been to the Staples Center, you’d know it’d be unwise to project attendance based on the lower-level seating.
The corporate brass there can’t treat their executives to complimentary suites if the game is held in Seattle.
They manage to make it to SD every year for the Holiday Bowl, I bet they could make it to Seattle or SF once every 5 years. Phoenix has pretty nice weather, and between spring training games and golf possibilities, they’d probably do ok. In fact, they might entice other sponsors (or get more from them) if they got out of LA.
Staples, can only matched by the Big East tournament at Madison Square Garden in NYC.
Staples Center: not quite MSG. Walking through Penn Station (and for the tourists, down from 42nd Street) is pretty electrifying. It’s certainly more exciting than the Oakland Coliseum, but that’s a bit of a stretch.
Los Angeles is easily the largest metropolitan area in a conference represented by very large metros.
Should they host all the conference tournaments? There’s probably more Boise State alums there than anywhere outside Idaho, UNLV grads outside Vegas, etc.
the announced attendance during the Washington-OSU game was 12,255 according to ESPN blogger Arkash Markazi.
What scootie said- I guess those insurance executives were so glad they could drive across town for a game that they forgot to go.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Bengie Molina: "I don't understand why they didn't want to commit to another year, with my numbers and my experience and things like that." Brain Sabean: "He's certainly welcomed back with open arms".
carp (paraphrased): "117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"
by natteringnabob on Mar 12, 2010 1:22 PM PST up reply actions
Los Angeles is Pac-10 territory (USC-UCLA). That is why the Pac-10 tournament can be held in L.A.
NYC is Big East territory (St. Johns). That is why the Big East tournament can be held there.
Las Vegas is MWC territory (UNLV). That is why the MWC tournament can be held there.
It’s not rocket science?
great
so Seattle is a go!
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Bengie Molina: "I don't understand why they didn't want to commit to another year, with my numbers and my experience and things like that." Brain Sabean: "He's certainly welcomed back with open arms".
carp (paraphrased): "117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"
by natteringnabob on Mar 12, 2010 3:34 PM PST up reply actions
Av I have been saying the 5 city rotation for years
It ONLY makes sense. Most WSU and UW alumni live in Seattle— Key Arena would be packed for those games. Most OSU and UO alumni live in Portland, so you have the same deal. Same with Phoenix and the Arizona schools. Quite frankly. UCLA and USC don’t pack Staples for their games. I’m tired of hearing about UCLA’s love for their basketball team; one bad year and they can’t even pack their own arena. They are so apathetic towards athletics, yet claim to be such great fans, it’s borderline disgusting.
It’s not like the Staples Center is like Madison Square Garden and the Big East tourney (which, by the way, is by far the best conference tournament there is once you get to the quarterfinals).
As said above, the argument that IF fans were motivated…. I’m sorry but wouldn’t you rather fill the game for at least two teams than not fill the arena at all. You mention the Big East tournament and how motivated the fans are, etc, etc. You do realize how much easier it is to get from Washington DC, Connecticut, Philadelphia, etc to NYC than it is to get to LA from Seattle or Portland?
And yes, if the Pac10 had 5 teams ranked in the top 25, I’m sure the tournament would have some more intrigue.
I’m not just saying be fair to the fans. I’m saying it would be a huge success if alternated between the five cities. The Big Sky tournament was a huge success when it was in Portland a few years ago. Imagine now that instead of Weber State playing Montana State, it was Arizona versus UCLA. I’m telling you, it only makes sense to rotate, and it’s frustrating that it’s not even being discussed- and probably never will.
by The VD Special on Mar 12, 2010 10:39 AM PST reply actions
I haven’t read all the comments yet, but I would be fine with alternating it so that it’s at Staples every other year, and when it’s not at Staples it can rotate between Oracle and/or HP Pavilion, the Rose Garden, Key Arena, and US Airways Arena.
"atomsareenough—cleaning up CGB one day at a time until we finally get that press pass." - Berkelium97
by atomsareenough on Mar 12, 2010 10:43 AM PST reply actions
Really though I’d like to keep it in California and just rotate it between LA and the Bay Area.
"atomsareenough—cleaning up CGB one day at a time until we finally get that press pass." - Berkelium97
by atomsareenough on Mar 12, 2010 11:05 AM PST up reply actions
I’d rather have it at Haas year in year out
no cal bear? no care
by EchoOfSilence on Mar 12, 2010 11:11 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah but that’s not remotely realistic.
"atomsareenough—cleaning up CGB one day at a time until we finally get that press pass." - Berkelium97
by atomsareenough on Mar 12, 2010 11:12 AM PST up reply actions
"Hello, Hotel Durant."
“Hi, I’d like to reserve 1,000 rooms for the Pac-10 Tournament?”
click
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Bengie Molina: "I don't understand why they didn't want to commit to another year, with my numbers and my experience and things like that." Brain Sabean: "He's certainly welcomed back with open arms".
carp (paraphrased): "117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"
by natteringnabob on Mar 12, 2010 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
I actually like this idea
But the problem is the other cities would only get to host once every 10 years. It almost defeats the purpose. But it would be better than nothing
by The VD Special on Mar 12, 2010 11:14 AM PST up reply actions
Then cut out Seattle, Portland and Phoenix and keep it in California. :)
The Bay Area is a little closer for the Oregon/Washington schools, and LA is closer for the Arizona schools. Especially if/when the conference adds Utah and Colorado, if you rotate to EVERY major city, that would add SLC and Denver to the mix and it would be what, once every 12-14 years? 12 I guess assuming the Bay Area only gets it once and not twice.
"atomsareenough—cleaning up CGB one day at a time until we finally get that press pass." - Berkelium97
by atomsareenough on Mar 12, 2010 11:26 AM PST up reply actions
Keep it in LA
I think chowder had a good point up there. I along with 3 of my buddies are Cal alums in LA that attend the tourney every year. If it were anywhere else, we would not go, an I feel that this is the case with many other alums of other schools. LA is probably home to the most alums of every school outisde of the home city.
I think if it were to rotate, attendance would be even lower.
Dang it’s tough typing on an iPhone….
by deanchoi on Mar 12, 2010 11:14 AM PST via mobile reply actions
By the way
My opinion is obviously biased because I live in LA but also because thru friends I have access to 2 different VIP boxes…
by deanchoi on Mar 12, 2010 11:18 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
So, pretty much disregard everything you say :)
"atomsareenough—cleaning up CGB one day at a time until we finally get that press pass." - Berkelium97
by atomsareenough on Mar 12, 2010 11:19 AM PST up reply actions
Sorry this is a kind of random question....
But will Staples sell out tonight? A few of my buddies and I are gonna drive up to LA this afternoon to (hopefully) watch Cal and Washington dominate la and the furd. I would buy tix now online, but i hate ticketmaster with everything inside me….
So will there be tickets at the box office if I get there around 4 or 5? THANKS!
by ucsdgoldenbear on Mar 12, 2010 11:14 AM PST reply actions
Don't worry
Craigslist has tons of tix. And there are always scalpers out front. ALWAYS
by deanchoi on Mar 12, 2010 11:16 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Tix
I wish I could help Im in upstate NY…heading to Syracuse in a few weeks (can’t friggin wait!)
But a couple options outside of Craigslist: 1) facebook -doa quick search 2) eBay – you could find a seller perhaps in the area..but you gotta get on it fast!
by CollegeFan1 on Mar 12, 2010 12:30 PM PST up reply actions
Counterpoint
The Pac-10 Tournament was destined to be in the Staples Center and needs to stay there. The only way the tournament was ever going to happen is if it was in LA. The rotational system has been repeatedly dismissed for several reasons:
- USC and UCLA wouldn’t vote for the site if it wasn’t in LA
- UW, WSU, UO, and OSU all need the tournament in LA to promote their California recruiting – and note that a stronger Pac-10 presence here helps all Pac-10 schools recruit.
- LA is the largest media market in the Pac-10
- LA is the largest population base in the Pac-10
Second, the Pac-10 Tournament is not a farce. It is a key way to get teams on TV in a setting that matters to raise the conference profile, raise the conference coffers (this does matter), and get marginal programs off of the bubble and into the Dance. Cal has been on the receiving side of this system recently, and Washington will probably get in solely on their cakewalk to the finals this year. Does the Pac-10 Tournament have the gravitas of the Big East or ACC Tourneys? No. But none of these factors are going to be improved by instituting a rotational system or striking the tournament all together.
In order to make me not feel quite so dirty for defending the half-ass administration of the Pac-10 Conference, I will say that the biggest problem with the Pac-10 Tournament is its horrible TV coverage. As an East Coast expat, I will say that it is damn difficult to find these games on TV since they are mainly being broadcast on the Pacific region Fox Sports networks. The Pac-10 Boston group had to work to find a bar that got the right channels to view the games and would then actually show the game in the stead of hockey, Big East, etc. Until we get the TV situation fixed in football and basketball, Cal and the Pac-10 are going to continue to fly under the radar of the national media.
by slims on Mar 12, 2010 12:51 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
As an East Coast expat, I will say that it is damn difficult to find these games on TV since they are mainly being broadcast on the Pacific region Fox Sports networks.
This. As is so often the case for me, I could not get the game because Fox Sports Ohio and Fox Cincinnati (the Fox Sports channels on my cable package) were carrying a MAC game followed by the Blue Jackets hockey game. They didn’t join Pac-10 tourney coverage until late in the first half of the ASU/stanfurd game.
Being tied to the Fox Sports Networks hurts the Pac-10. Pure and simple.
I am a Vereenian.
Boo on your LA love and unfortunate grasp of reality
but I am right with you on the last paragraph. Back before Al Gore invented a series of tubes to bring us cheerleader pictures, it was practically impossible to follow Cal football in NY. I remember winning a bet with two friends, one an alum of ND and one from Michigan, that “Cal” the football team was from the University of California located in Berkeley.
Unfortunately, I think this is why all the rescheduling of games (especially night football) for the eastern market is kind of a waste of time. Other than gamblers and alums, I can’t imagine a lot of people settling in at 10 PM to watch the battle for the Apple Cup. ESPN certainly doesn’t bother.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Bengie Molina: "I don't understand why they didn't want to commit to another year, with my numbers and my experience and things like that." Brain Sabean: "He's certainly welcomed back with open arms".
carp (paraphrased): "117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"
by natteringnabob on Mar 12, 2010 1:35 PM PST up reply actions
Just to be clear
I have no personal love for the city of Los Angeles, and the Staples Center isn’t without its flaws. I just don’t understand the logic of a rotational tournament beyond overvalued notions of parity, particularly in light of the inherent benefits of a major market tournament.
I agree, too, that rescheduling football and basketball games is also kind of a waste of time and can hurt the local fans but that, too, is linked to the Versus and FSN television schedules.
What about the idea of letting the local fans go to the games easily?
"atomsareenough—cleaning up CGB one day at a time until we finally get that press pass." - Berkelium97
by atomsareenough on Mar 12, 2010 3:26 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with this. The rotational system sounds good in theory but actually implementing that would be a nightmare. Logistically it gets to be so much more work that it’s better for the Pac-10 to violate “fairness to all teams” rule and just have it at Staples each year.
Not to mention the turnout. Pac-10 schools have pretty poor turnouts anyways and it’s not like the LA schools are the only ones with bad fans. Don’t even want to mention how crappy our attendance was this year and won’t even get into how great of a year we had and all the history behind it. Imagining the tournament @ Oracle in a year with Cal and Stanford in the bottom half of the Pac-10 with little chance of winning the tournament, will ANYONE even show up at the game?
Don’t get me wrong, the LA schools have a clear advantage with this deal, especially USC. It’s not like UCLA fans students can just walk over to Staples either. But the extra games for national exposure during this important bubble watch part of the season is so important even if it’s just to get your name out there in the conversation. ASU and Wash looked dead a few weeks ago and all season long the Pac-10 was a one bid conference. A few wins going certain ways and we were looking at a 3 bid conference had one of them (or both) gotten in with a team other than Cal getting the auto bid.
just teasing re LA
but…
overvalued notions of parity
Is this the same comment as “having the Yankees and Red Sox in the playoffs every year is good because more people will watch the games on TV and consume advertising”?
Or are you saying that $C and the branch campus don’t really get a homecourt advantage?
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Bengie Molina: "I don't understand why they didn't want to commit to another year, with my numbers and my experience and things like that." Brain Sabean: "He's certainly welcomed back with open arms".
carp (paraphrased): "117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"
sorry for the reply fail to slims
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Bengie Molina: "I don't understand why they didn't want to commit to another year, with my numbers and my experience and things like that." Brain Sabean: "He's certainly welcomed back with open arms".
carp (paraphrased): "117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"
by natteringnabob on Mar 12, 2010 2:38 PM PST up reply actions
Not Quite
I see where you’re going with this in that "having the Pac-10 Tournament in LA every year is good because more people will watch the games on TV and consume advertising." But the parallels don’t quite line-up.
First, the Pac-10 Tournament has not shown any home-town bias despite the fact that it has been held in LA.
2002: Arizona
2003: Oregon
2004: ’Furd
2005: Washington
2006: UCLA
2007: Oregon
2008: UCLA
2009: USC
Even with the small sample size, I think you’re hard-pressed to show that there is a competitive imbalance with having the tournament in LA every year.
Second, unlike the Yankees/Red Sox analogy, success for the Pac-10 is shared amongst all of the teams. The Blue Jays don’t get a bonus if the ALCS is in New York, but every Pac-10 team is getting some boost or another (visibility, recruiting, financial) by having the tourney in LA.
Even with the small sample size, I think you’re hard-pressed to show that there is a competitive imbalance with having the tournament in LA every year.
because of the small sample sized you’d also be hard-pressed to disprove competitive imbalance as well.
The #1 greatest threat to America: BEARS
small sample size
75% of the last four years!
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Bengie Molina: "I don't understand why they didn't want to commit to another year, with my numbers and my experience and things like that." Brain Sabean: "He's certainly welcomed back with open arms".
carp (paraphrased): "117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"
by natteringnabob on Mar 12, 2010 4:18 PM PST up reply actions
well, the problem with that is that UCLA was the #1 seed three times. You’d have to look at how often UCLA/USC win games when they’re not favored. They’ve certainly done it enough over the years to make you wonder, that’s for sure.
The #1 greatest threat to America: BEARS
just kidding eh
But as you say just listing the winners doesn’t show how many times one of those schools advanced farther than they “should” have in the tournaments. Pretty subjective to figure out, although I suppose you could sift through the “upsets” to figure it out (although that assumes the seeding is perfect too).
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Bengie Molina: "I don't understand why they didn't want to commit to another year, with my numbers and my experience and things like that." Brain Sabean: "He's certainly welcomed back with open arms".
carp (paraphrased): "117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"
by natteringnabob on Mar 12, 2010 4:26 PM PST up reply actions
Alright, fine
Revised for seeding
2002: Arizona (2)
2003: Oregon (5)
2004: ’Furd (1)
2005: Washington (2)
2006: UCLA (1)
2007: Oregon (4)
2008: UCLA (1)
2009: USC (4)
Yes, the sample size is small to disprove any local advantages. But what we’ve seen is both high and mid seed teams travel to LA, win upsets, and claim the title. And, we’ve seen UCLA win twice as a one seed. And one upset by USC last year when they came in hot.
I just don’t think you can go around screaming that there is a competitive advantage for UCLA and USC when, if that advantage was distinct, it should have manifested itself by now.
One concession
Five of the nine Pac-10 Tournaments have seen an LA-based team in the final.
2002: USC (4)
2003: USC (7)
2006: UCLA (1) (won)
2008: UCLA (1) (won)
2009: USC (4) (won)
that's sort of what I was asking with the bit about the Yanks and Red Nex
I thought you were arguing that having the LA teams be successful was good for the Pac-10 because more money is made and more exposure is received because they’re LA teams than if it were, say, WSU getting an advantage.
If it proves out that an LA team not seeded one or two plays in the final most years, that would seem to be a good suggestion that things are unbalanced.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Bengie Molina: "I don't understand why they didn't want to commit to another year, with my numbers and my experience and things like that." Brain Sabean: "He's certainly welcomed back with open arms".
carp (paraphrased): "117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"
by natteringnabob on Mar 12, 2010 4:59 PM PST up reply actions
I'm not really arguing anything
I’m trying to understand whether you’re saying parity isn’t compromised, or if it’s irrelevant because of all the dollars-and-cents benefits you outline. I guess it’s both.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Bengie Molina: "I don't understand why they didn't want to commit to another year, with my numbers and my experience and things like that." Brain Sabean: "He's certainly welcomed back with open arms".
carp (paraphrased): "117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"
by natteringnabob on Mar 12, 2010 4:24 PM PST up reply actions
Gotcha
Essentially: there’s no evidence that parity is compromised. If parity is compromised, it is slight at best, and it is greatly outweighed by the benefits outlined.
I think parity's pretty important
assuming who wins and loses is also important. But between the subjectivity of the seeding and the difficulty of telling what effects the crowd has on the game there, I can’t really argue with your blasted reality.
So I’m going to listen to a webcast of a baseball game from Texas! (0-0 after 1)
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Bengie Molina: "I don't understand why they didn't want to commit to another year, with my numbers and my experience and things like that." Brain Sabean: "He's certainly welcomed back with open arms".
carp (paraphrased): "117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"
by natteringnabob on Mar 12, 2010 4:43 PM PST up reply actions
I honestly don’t know if I buy this completely. First off, each team already plays 2 games in LA during the season anyway, so however much added “exposure” they get from playing an extra day or two in the tourney is probably minimal. Secondly, I don’t know how the ticket proceeds are divided, but I would expect that teams would have more fans, or could potentially perform better, in years when the tournament is closer to their home area. Lastly, in terms of visibility, the Pac-10 Tournament will always be the Pac-10 Tournament, no matter where it is, so apart from actual attendance (which in LA has been pretty poor, at least some years like this year), that visibility comes from television. Games can be televised and broadcast widely no matter what city they are in, so I don’t really see the benefit of having it in LA every single year.
"atomsareenough—cleaning up CGB one day at a time until we finally get that press pass." - Berkelium97
by atomsareenough on Mar 12, 2010 4:52 PM PST up reply actions
Why would more people watch it on TV if it’s LA? That makes no sense.
"atomsareenough—cleaning up CGB one day at a time until we finally get that press pass." - Berkelium97
by atomsareenough on Mar 12, 2010 4:59 PM PST up reply actions
because they don't want to go to the Staples Center!
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Bengie Molina: "I don't understand why they didn't want to commit to another year, with my numbers and my experience and things like that." Brain Sabean: "He's certainly welcomed back with open arms".
carp (paraphrased): "117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"
by natteringnabob on Mar 12, 2010 5:00 PM PST up reply actions
A few points
1) The location of the tournament does influence the level of coverage. You have to get the gear to the right places, and shipping that equipment from LA (Fox Sports hub) to wherever that tournament is held can be a logistical issue. I can’t find the article right now to back this up, but I’m pretty sure that at some point Fox Sports made it clear that its preference was to have the tournament in LA for the sake of its coverage.
2) Additionally, the Staples Center lighting is designed for television broadcasts – if you don’t believe there’s a difference, go back and watch some of the mid-major conference championships (Lehigh-Lafayette today, for example) where the quality of the viewing experience is radically different.
3) It may not make sense to you, but my guess is that more people will watch the games in LA because the tournament has more local visibility.
4) As far as recruiting is concerned… my understanding is that the opportunity to play in the Staples Center is a recruiting bonus. Also, while each team may play two games in LA during the season, those games generally come on the same road trip, and there isn’t a whole lot of time for recruiting when you are playing two games in three days. Plus, the tournament is an extra touch-point in a recruiting hotbed – the Southern California area – and I have to believe that, for the out-of-state schools, they’ll take all of the exposure in LA that they can get.
“Its preference”. That doesn’t mean they won’t cover it if it’s not in LA. The SEC tournament is in Nashville, which I don’t think compares exactly favorably to SF or Seattle or Phoenix.
So are you saying that other NBA arenas such as Oracle or US Airways have the same type of lighting for TV? We’re keeping it in LA for the lighting? Seriously?
More people in LA might watch, but I think fewer people anywhere else will have any interest.
I don’t have a problem with it being in Staples, but I don’t see why it has to be there EVERY year. There are plenty of other NBA arenas available in the conference. None of your arguments explains why it has to be there every single year.
"atomsareenough—cleaning up CGB one day at a time until we finally get that press pass." - Berkelium97
by atomsareenough on Mar 13, 2010 4:44 PM PST up reply actions
Spread the wealth. I think the other markets would be more excited than the laid back LA fan. Vegas idea isn’t bad except there’s already a pretty good college team playing there.
by Trojan Conquest on Mar 16, 2010 4:53 PM PDT reply actions



















