carp’s crazy thoughts for MLK Day: Assessing playing time opportunities for the backup QB’s. Part I
(carp's idea here is an interesting one to consider. Look for Part II to come up soon!)
This crazy thoughts series includes thoughts on a new OOC rivalry game, Pac10 expansion Part I & 2, a new West Coast BCS bowl game, and the salaries of assistant coaches.
CGB and the Internets in general have a rich history of discussing quarterbacks. I should note that this post does not advocate a two QB system or for Riley being benched at some point in 2008 in favor of some unproven QB. I believe the passing game struggles were the responsibilities of the entire offense-related aspects of the program (Oline blocking/coaching, QB play, WR play/coaching, RB pass blocking and, at times, play formation/calling). About the only guys who really did well this year on offensive were Ron Gould, Matt Summers-Gavin and Anthony Miller and both players were injured at times this year. I almost put Tedford and Ludwig in this category, but I think they need to share some of the blame, too. My point is that this is not a rip-the-offense piece where I put 100% of the passing game failures on the QB. The point of this crazy thought, is to analyze and discuss several games where the backup QB might have played without impacting the outcome of the game at hand.
The casual fan may look at backups playing in garbage time as having no real impact in either the outcome or the future of the program. However, I believe it is a critical time for learning and growth. The benefits that I see are the following:
- In-game experience. There are significant short- and long-term benefits to giving the backup quarterback playing time as it comes about in the season. As we saw in the MNC game, the backup might have to come in and play some real minutes against a very good team (incidentally, that was Gale Gilbert’s son) and it would behoove the team to have the backup QB as prepared as possible should such an unfortunate circumstance occur. In the long-run, it can be mentally grueling to commit 60-80+ hours a week to a sport that you’ve loved for a long time and never see the field. Think of the confidence and the sense of reward such a player would feel if he enters the game, completes an 18-yard crossing route, and hears the crowd roar. He’s now tasted success and it can only help him get through grueling off-season workouts while everyone else chases coeds (for the Matt Barkley fans, that would be girls).
- Allows coaches to get a better understanding of the talent behind the starter. Occasionally, you find the diamond in the rough (e.g., Matt Cassell). Practice can’t replace live experiences against real competition in front of a sea of blue t-shirts or a hostile road atmosphere. Occasionally, you find players that perform better in games than in practice (Shaun Hill of the 49ers would be an excellent example). Fans, coaches, and players all feel better about next year’s running game after Vereen’s performances against Arizona and Stanfurd. The same confidence if Vereen had continued in his ‘1b’ role that he played. The change in play could be more subtle; a player may mishandle the timing of a screen pass in practice but runs it perfectly in the game; again, this provides more confidence which in turn helps motivation.This will not change the outcome of the game. Gaining/surrendering the lead was not going to happen.
The negatives that some fans might bring up (but I do not agree with) are the following:
- The QB is a leader and can only lead when he’s playing. If he cannot lead on the sidelines then he’s not a leader.
- It could create a competition/controversy. If that were to happen, would that be such a bad thing? In my experience, it will push the incumbent to work even harder and thus maximize his possible output. This is a sport after all. In most instances, one will outshine the other. Cal fans, of course, have experienced the two QB thing in 2008 and, if you believe in the saying, if you have two QB’s you have zero QB’s. Unless of course you have Leak and Tebow, but that’s a rare and different example. Cal currently does not have a Wild Grizzly-type QB, but that would certainly make things interesting.
- It will cause the starter to lose confidence and/or piss them off. I remember Steve Young going off on George Siefert during the Niner-Eagles game where the Niners lost badly at home. Siefert pulled Young when it was like 42-10, and Young let him know his displeasure. The Niners later won the Super Bowl and Steve Young won the MVP. It would be hard for me to see how Riley’s confidence could have been any worse in blow out losses where Cal played really poorly. In baseball, if the starting pitcher is getting shelled he’s usually pulled rather than continue to offer up the same crap he’s been offering. Why is the quarterback position treated so differently? Can’t the starting QB say, "You know, I just didn’t have it today but let’s see what Mansion can do out there."
After the fold, take a look at more information about how Tedford played his backup QBs. GO BEARS!
Riley’s a 50-55% passer who's actually around 47% against good competition (more on that to come in another post). He may or may not improve next year. I’m leaning towards 'not improving' as the skill sets that need sharpening appear to be difficult, perhaps impossible, to improve upon. That leaves the fan to wonder if other quarterbacks on the roster can actually complete a forward pass. As I said in the intro, Riley was pressured and receivers dropped balls. However, he had some glaring inaccuracies, too. Unfortunately, due to personnel decisions by the management the 2009 football season has ended without us really being able to understand the talents on the roster behind Riley. Let’s look at several games where Mansion or Sweeney could have received more playing time and, most importantly, actually attempt passes while they were playing.
Cal 52 - Maryland 13 / 5-Sept
This victory was also known as the game that confirmed the Top 15 preseason ranking. Riley looked like he had put it together, and Best looked like he’d be in New York in December.
1st Q: 14-3 Cal
Halftime: 31-3 Cal
3rd Q: 45-13 Cal
According to ESPN the Ocho, Riley completes a TD to Vereen with 13:28 to go in the 4th Q (52-13 Cal), Mansion relieves Riley on Cal’s next drive and promptly does the following:
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California at 11:26 |
MD |
CAL |
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1st and 10 at CAL 21 |
Covaughn DeBoskie-Johnson rush for 7 yards to the Cal 28. |
13 |
52 |
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2nd and 3 at CAL 28 |
Covaughn DeBoskie-Johnson rush for 1 yard to the Cal 29. |
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3rd and 2 at CAL 29 |
Covaughn DeBoskie-Johnson rush for 7 yards to the Cal 36 for a 1ST down. |
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1st and 10 at CAL 36 |
Covaughn DeBoskie-Johnson rush for 2 yards to the Cal 38. |
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2nd and 8 at CAL 38 |
Covaughn DeBoskie-Johnson rush for 2 yards to the Cal 40. |
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3rd and 6 at CAL 40 |
Brock Mansion pass incomplete to Michael Calvin. |
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4th and 6 at CAL 40 |
Bryan Anger punt for 48 yards, returned by Kenny Tate for 4 yards to the Mary 16. |
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Cal would get the ball again for an additional 4 minutes and not throw another pass. The above incompletion was Mansion’s only pass attempt of the season
I had to use a 2008 photo of Mansion, since his 2009 playing time was o so brief.
Discussion:
On the one hand, it was smart of The Management to play Riley into the 4th quarter to build confidence, continuity, etc. At the time, it appeared he had a great game against a moderately successful program from an auto-qualifying BCS conference. Mansion’s job was to run out the clock, and don’t do anything stupid. I don’t disagree with the general approach, as I think it was a respectful way to end a blowout. I love Tedford’s class in situations such as this.
However, as the scoreboard indicated, this game was over at halftime. It was 45-6 with 10 min left in the 3rd quarter. I’d argue that getting your (now apparently stud) starting QB out of the game at this point avoids an injury possibility, and would have allowed Mansion and/or Sweeney to get some real reps out there without losing the game. It was an afterthought at the time, and seemed overly critical of a very nice win. Now, to me at least, it feels like a missed opportunity.
Cal 59 – Eastern Washington 7
Decent FCS team at home…Bears come out a little flat but respond well and cruise the rest of the way. Hope/optimism is still high.
1st Q: 7-7
Halftime: 24-7
3rd Q: 38-7
This one’s a little harder to look back at…Riley’s still out on the field with 12:30 to go in the 4th quarter 45-7 Cal), and the Bears next possession features DeBo and Sofele running free for a TD. Let’s give the Bears the benefit of the doubt and say that Sweeney was handing it off to the RBs (I can’t remember and ESPN doesn’t give sufficient details). Sweeney completes his only pass attempt with less than 3 min to go in the game:
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California at 4:34 |
EWU |
CAL |
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1st and 10 at CAL 23 |
Covaughn DeBoskie-Johnson rush for 11 yards to the Cal 34 for a 1ST down. |
7 |
59 |
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1st and 10 at CAL 34 |
Covaughn DeBoskie-Johnson rush for a loss of 2 yards, fumbled, recovered by Cal Covaughn DeBoskie-Johnson at the Cal 32. |
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2nd and 12 at CAL 32 |
Covaughn DeBoskie-Johnson rush for 30 yards to the EWash 38 for a 1ST down. |
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1st and 10 at EWU 38 |
Beau Sweeney pass complete to Jarrett Sparks for 17 yards to the EWash 21 for a 1ST down. |
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1st and 10 at EWU 21 |
Covaughn DeBoskie-Johnson rush for 7 yards to the EWash 14. |
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2nd and 3 at EWU 14 |
Covaughn DeBoskie-Johnson rush for 7 yards to the EWash 7 for a 1ST down. |
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1st and Goal at EWU 7 |
Covaughn DeBoskie-Johnson rush for a loss of 3 yards to the EWash 10. |
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2nd and Goal at EWU 10 |
Covaughn DeBoskie-Johnson rush for 9 yards to the EWash 1. |
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3rd and Goal at EWU 1 |
Covaughn DeBoskie-Johnson rush for 1 yard for a TOUCHDOWN. |
7 |
58 |
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Vince D'Amato extra point GOOD. |
7 |
59 |
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Giorgio Tavecchio kickoff for 62 yards returned by J.T. Leggin for 17 yards to the EWash 25. |
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DRIVE TOTALS: Cal drive: 9 plays 77 yards, 04:16 Cal TD |
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No, I am not Aaron Rodgers!
Discussion:
The game was not out of reach at the half (24-7 Cal), but it became out of reach quickly (31-7 w/ 12:30 to go in 3rdQ; 38-7 w/ 7:45 to go in 3rdQ). Sweeney would enter the game nearly a full quarter later and only throw one pass. In two games, Cal had outscored their opponent 111-20 but the backup QB’s have only attempted one pass each.
Oregon 42 – Cal 3
The first no-show game of the year. Sofele makes a great play on Special Teams, and Cal gets the ball at Oregon’s 22 with 14:56 to go in the 1st Quarter. Oddly, one could argue that the game was over after Cal was leading 3-0. (Riley sack when he had a lot of time to throw + two incompletions which lead to a FG). Anyway, let’s look at this one a little closer:
1st Q: 3-3
Halftime: 25-3
3rd Q: 39-3
Sweeney enters the game with 4:05 remaining in the 4th Quarter (42-3 Oregon) He gets to throw 5 passes and completes one of them:
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California at 4:05 |
CAL |
ORE |
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1st and 10 at CAL 13 |
Shane Vereen rush for 7 yards to the Cal 20. |
3 |
42 |
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2nd and 3 at CAL 20 |
Shane Vereen rush for 6 yards to the Cal 26 for a 1ST down. |
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1st and 10 at CAL 26 |
Beau Sweeney pass incomplete to Shane Vereen. |
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2nd and 10 at CAL 26 |
Isi Sofele rush for a loss of 1 yard to the Cal 25. |
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3rd and 11 at CAL 25 |
OREGON penalty 15 yard pass interference accepted, no play. |
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1st and 10 at CAL 40 |
Beau Sweeney pass incomplete. |
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2nd and 10 at CAL 40 |
Isi Sofele rush for 14 yards to the Oregn 46 for a 1ST down. |
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1st and 10 at ORE 46 |
Beau Sweeney pass incomplete to Jeremy Ross. |
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2nd and 10 at ORE 46 |
Beau Sweeney rush for 5 yards to the Oregn 41. |
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3rd and 5 at ORE 41 |
Beau Sweeney pass complete to Jarrett Sparks for 7 yards to the Oregn 34 for a 1ST down. |
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1st and 10 at ORE 34 |
Beau Sweeney pass incomplete to Shane Vereen. |
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2nd and 10 at ORE 34 |
Beau Sweeney sacked by Terrell Turner for a loss of 12 yards to the Oregn 46. |
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End of 4th Quarter |
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Discussion:
While the scoreboard and Cal’s on-field showing indicated things were done at halftime, the game probably wasn’t officially out of reach until either 9:10 to go in the 3rd Q (32-3 Oregon) or 2:10 to go in the 3rd Q (39-3). Like the previous two blowouts, The Management doesn’t put in the backup QB until nearly a full quarter later. Put the backup in too early, and it is 2008 all over again (QB gets yanked quickly when things aren’t going well). Down 36 on the road with 17 min to go seems to me like a good time to put in the backup without the repercussions of a QB controversy…unless of course the backup throws 3 TD’s. Would that have been such a bad thing, though? Taking this a step further, is it fair to say the backup QB had so few of opportunities in order to avoid a potential controversy? Let’s get back to that later.
USC 30 – Cal 3
Nearly 72,000 fill Memorial Stadium to watch Kevin Riley go 15-40 for 199 yards and Brian Anger punt seven times. The backup QB’s did not see the field the entire game.
1st Quarter: 10-0
Halftime: 20-0
3rd Quarter: 23-0
Discussion:
It was over when Riley found Taylor Mays in the end zone. I suppose it wasn’t officially over until Riley overthrew Best on the 4th down with 5 min or so left in the third quarter (23-0 USC). The sullen and mutinous crowd would have likely gone crazy if the backup QB would have had led Cal to even a successful drive.
Cal 45 – UCLA 26
I cite this game, because this was a situation where it appeared Cal might have (but didn’t) run away with the game and allow time for the backup QB to play.
1st Q: 14-7
Halftime: 35-20
3rd Q: 38-26
Discussion:
First, one should always be pleased with a double-digit road win over a bowl-bound team. However, the Bears appeared headed towards a blowout win with a 15-point halftime lead and 5 TD’s in the first half. That unfortunately didn’t happen as the Bears couldn’t put UCLA away until Kendricks’ pick six with 5 min to go in the game (45-26 Cal). Cal’s D allowed 311 yards in the air, 137 yards rushing, and 17 first downs. Of course, not playing the backup QB was the right call. However, if Cal could have put up 10+ points in the 3rd Quarter, this would have been a great opportunity for the backups to play. What shouldn’t get lost is that this was Riley’s best game ever, in my opinion. On the road against a defense that featured talents like Price, Carter, and Verner, Riley went 14-23 for 205 yards, 3 TDs, and a key block on Best’s 93-yard scamper. This is a Riley I could learn to love.
In part II, we'll take a look at the rest of the games and have some final conclusions! GO BEARS!
The opinions expressed in a FanPost are, in every way, reflective of the opinions of every California Golden Blogs Marshawnthusiast. Moreover, they are reflective of every employee of SBNation, including Tyler "Blez" Bleszinski.
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Part II to come later this morning…for some reason SB Nation doesn’t like the size of this post, hence the reason it’s in two parts.
"We lose to Stanford in many sports, but if you want to make a Cal team quit, bring a weapon."
--Coach Clark
Good post.
Regarding the lack of pass attempts in the first two blowouts, I believe there was a quote from Tedford on that issue where he admits that it’s not ideal experience for his backups, but at the same time he doesn’t want to run up the score. The compromise is that Mansion et al. can get experience with calling plays in real-time, without having many pass attempts to show for it.
You seem to be arguing both sides here
… I’ll hold judgement ’till Part II where hopefully you summarize your thoughts.
It almost seems like I agree with your post based on what you’ve written (again almost) when clearly we know that’s not entirely true ;)
In other words, Go Bears!
Pac 10 Expansion?
Did someone here mention Pac 10 expansion?
HERESY, I tell you!!
Let there be no such talk.
The Pac 10 is the best conference in terms of both football and basketball. In football, they play a true round robin where everyone plays everyone once. It works out perfectly. The other conferences are totally lame and chance of schedule plays into who the conference champion, which cheapens it.
In basketball, everyone plays everyone twice, once at home and once away. Again, the crowning of a Pac 10 champion is complete.
Why mess with a good thing?
Oh, dollars. You don’t want to go there, do you really?
have you read Parts I and II?
"We lose to Stanford in many sports, but if you want to make a Cal team quit, bring a weapon."
--Coach Clark
No, I just saw “Pac-10” and “expansion” next to each other.
Maybe we should agree to not put those in the same sentence. And I should read before I write.
Okay, I take it back. I did read this a long time ago. I HATE the idea of splitting up the conference into two halves and then playing, as you say, “two randomly scheduled cross-divisional games”. And that was exactly the point I made in my first comment above.
Why on earth play 2 randomly selected games. That totally screws the whole concept of conference champion up. It also creates a potential rematch between teams, which we don’t need in college football. We need to play MORE games, not fewer (which a rematch does).
If you want to create excitement and increase revenue, you should go after concepts like having the Pac-10 play another conference in a super conference (20 team) championship, the winner of which would almost always have a date in the national championship game.
Why not just do this:
Winner of Big 10 and Pac 10 play in Rose Bowl. (which is the way we want it!)
Winner of ACC and Big East play in Orange
Winner of Big 12 play choice of wild card in Fiesta
Winner of SEC and choice of wild card in Sugar Bowl (pick order rotates annually with Fielsta)
Wild Card conferences:
1) WAC
2) Mountain West
3) Mid American
4) Conference USA
5) I-A Independents (eg: Notre Dame)
6) Sun Belt
Since two teams from the above 6 are going to be picked for “BCS” games, the other 4 conferences will complain. Actually, one of them will usually be Notre Dame, so why not say 5 conferences will complain. So, we do this:
The 4 conferences that ARE NOT selected for the aforementioned big Bowl games, will be matched up in 2 additional mini-bcs games.
After the 6 bowls (Rose, Fiesta, Sugar, Orange, mini1, plus mini2) are playing, polsters get to select the 4 teams they want to advance to the 2 game National Championship Round. Polsters and money making media representatives choose seeds 1 and 2 to play against seeds 3 and 4 in a National Semifinal, the winners of which play in the National Championship game.
Yes, I add games to the schedule: 2 extra games for 2 teams and 1 extra game for 2 teams.
But this way we keep tradition and simply add to it. Screwing up the conferences, as you propose (at least as I see it), doesn’t solve the end problem.
I'll take my solution further
Eliminate OOC games and play the 9 Pac 10 games immediately. Same for all conferences. Each conference gets a winner and standings are then created.
If you want to play a 13 game (total) schedule, and you have just played 9, that leaves 4 games left. That leaves room for a Sweet 16 tournament to determine the national championship. Entrants would mostly come from the power conferences, but certainly 0 or 1 loss winners of weak conferences could get in.
The only caveat is that the losing teams keep playing by simply entering into the losers side of the bracket.
What about all the D-1 programs NOT in the Final 16? You could certainly have the next 16 teams be matched up into a consolation national bracket, again, with losers continuing play.
You could have a 3rd group of 16 play another consolation bracket.
The rest of the teams could enter into regional pools to keep stadium crowds high (allowing travel).
Of course, problems arise to:
where games are played
how much time folks have to plan for travel, print material, etc.
who gets revenue from games in these brackets,
and,
doormats may not want to play so many games, especially late in the season, in the northern states, when they’re already winless.
But, what I really like about the concept is that we:
1) keep traditional conference matchups and champions crowned
2) create a bigger, more exciting national championship tournament
3) create add’l opportunities to win the secondary and third/fourth/regional brackets. This is particular cool for teams that haven’t had good seasons – now they are matched up with teams more to their talent level.
A nice result of this is that it allows polsters to evaluate all the teams for the start of the next season. Like, if a team is always getting grouped year after year in the 3rd group of 16 tournament, but then they win it a couple yrs in a row (like, TCU, Utah, Boise State) then the pollsters might consider rating them up in future years polls if they win their conference again.
Okay, there are many holes, but it’s a concept I’ve been working with for the past year or two. Maybe my own fanpost with complete details one day.
Nice ideas. I opperate on the premise that a) the BCS sucks, b) it’s not going anywhere as much as I wish it would, and c) the Pac10 conference is better than it demonstrates (which is the fault of the pre-Larry Scott era). I also feel that expansion is more likely than BCS playoffs.
"We lose to Stanford in many sports, but if you want to make a Cal team quit, bring a weapon."
--Coach Clark
well, if you’re right, then this will be one sad Bear Fan.
I’ve been waiting to go to the Rose Bowl my entire life. If they change things around before we go, then I will be sick.
Let us go ONCE before the system changes.
I have dreamed of the Rose Bowl parade on New Years Day, with my grandfather marching with the band just like he did in ’38, since forever.
Change the system, and my hope disappears. We are already walking a gauntlet on the subject – if we go undefeated in a season, we bypass Rose and go to National Chumpionship, and that would be a shame.
Now that the season is over...
I think you are overlooking the needs of our first team O for the sake of wanting to see the backups throw a pass. Our starting QB and the QB who gave us the best chance to win needed all the reps he could get and that is why he was left in the games for longer than usual.
I recall the first team O playing into the 4th qtr vs EWU, and when I rewatched that game a few days ago, I could understand why: they needed to take as many reps together as possible to get better. Our starting QB, and the guy who gave us the best chance to win was still making throws like this Wazzu Slant Pattern Oopsie past the midpoint of the season.
I agree there are some instances where JT could have yanked Riley earlier and substituted the backup into the game during blowouts. I agree at some points, Cal had nothing to lose so they should have just put the backup in and give him a little experience. But when looking closer at the games you have listed, it’s understandable why the coaches substituted when they did and playcalled the way they did.
You covered the reasoning behind the blowout wins and why JT doesn’t call for throwing passes when up by a lot. The UCLA game was still in doubt until late in the 4th quarter, so I don’t understand why you listed that game aside from attempting to label it as a “could have been” point to strengthen your argument.
In our blowout losses, what message would that have sent to Riley if he was yanked early? Despite what JT kept telling the media about he QB competion leading into the Fall 2009 starter, there was NO competition. Riley was head over heels better and more experienced than the other 2. There really was no threat of him losing his job in 2009. However, I recall a rather large group of fans called for JT’s head in 2008 because he didn’t allow Riley to take his bumps, let him struggle, and play through difficult situations. They cursed JT for yanking Riley for an experienced 2 year starter who knew the playbook in and out, won a co-Pac10 championship, and threw for over 5500 yards at the time. And now, people are calling for the inexperienced backups to come in and take snaps so they can fill out a stat sheet with pass attempts to please a small internet contingent of unhappy fans that want to see what the backups can do and create unneeded controversy if the backup completes a pass or two during garbage time.
No matter how anybody tries to spin it, it’s obvious what’s starting to happen in the fanbase: people are getting sick of Riley and want the next QB. I can tell people off the bat, buckle your seatbelts and get used to bumpy ride with Riley because he’s not going anywhere unless Sweeney unseats him. If that happens, it won’t be until a few games into next season.
what a fun topic to blog about, huh? I mean in this fanpost alone we’ve heard:
-starter needs as many reps as possible!
-backup snaps are unimportant!
To each, his own I suppose.
You covered the reasoning behind the blowout wins and why JT doesn’t call for throwing passes when up by a lot. The UCLA game was still in doubt until late in the 4th quarter, so I don’t understand why you listed that game aside from attempting to label it as a "could have been" point to strengthen your argument.
I included this, the Washington St, and the Utah games because these games were closer (for much of the way) than the scoreboard sugested and I wanted to provide a thorough, objective analysis even if it doesn’t pad my argument.
what message would that have sent to Riley if he was yanked early?
Agreed, it’s a fine line as I wrote. In all of the blowout losses where I suggested more PT was available for the backups, there was a significant time period between what I suggested and what Tedford actually did. What I’m trying to say is that he could have been inserted at several opportunities in between these two time points.
people are getting sick of Riley and want the next QB
I for one am wondering if 50ish percent is the best that the roster has to offer. As Hydro quickly points out below, much more goes into QB ability than completion %. However, I think it matters more than Hydro and perhaps even Jeff Tedford think.
Later this week I have another post on the 2009 passing game. The results are surprising and I think it will make one feel a bit better about Riley and a lot worse about the rest of the players involved in the passing game. Stay tuned!
"We lose to Stanford in many sports, but if you want to make a Cal team quit, bring a weapon."
--Coach Clark
Nice post, Carp
Like most, I agree that the “two-quarterback” system generally doesn’t work. It reeks of coach’s indecision, sends an unclear leadership message to the team, and it messes with the players’ confidence.
I nonetheless think most teams would benefit from some regular rotation at the quarterback position. Just as is the norm for tailbacks and point guards, let your starter rest for a series in the second quarter. This not only gets the backup valuable experience in something other than mop-up duty, and keeps him game-sharp should he be needed in the event of injury, but it gives the starter a chance to watch from the sidelines with the headset on to reflect on the first quarter and begin planning the rest of the game. Furthermore, it offers a change of pace to which the defense has to adjust; indeed, you could even customize a small set of plays specifically for the backup to master and employ, allowing the bulk of the very finite practice time still go to the starter.
The biggest downside of the two-quarterback system seems to be psychological, with the starter afraid to make mistakes, get yanked, and perhaps never see the field again. A planned rotation would seem to alleviate those concerns. I had hoped in 2008 that this is exactly what Tedford would do with Riley and Longshore, and I suspect that was his initial plan. Then Longshore went out and tanked his season-opening appearance against Michigan State, only to watch Riley in subsequent weeks fail to cement his hold on the position.
What do you all think? Why not a one-and-a-half-quarterback system? Didn’t Florida run something like this with Tebow during his Freshman year? Oregon did it a lot in the 1990s, too.
I think the biggest disadvantage is simply the perception that it isn’t “normal” and that it somehow displays a lack in confidence with the starter. But if you firmly establish that the starter is the man, and his backup is there just to give him a momentary breather, then I don’t really see the problem. Tailbacks didn’t get rotated in the past like they do today, nor did just about every position on the defensive side of the ball. It also used to be “normal” for starting pitchers to go a complete game, with bullpen duty seen as a big demotion rather than a highly valued specialty. These aren’t perfect analogies for the quarterback position, and maybe are even deeply flawed. Nonetheless, they provide evidence that the conventional wisdom in terms of substitution patterns is subject to change, no matter how entrenched it may appear to be.
Go Bears!
by California Pete on Jan 18, 2010 12:35 PM PST reply actions
Chris from Smart Football says the Tebow/Leak thing is the only real example of a successful two-QB system. Here, you have the regular offense for one guy (Leak) and the Wild Tebo packages for the other (Tebow).
"We lose to Stanford in many sports, but if you want to make a Cal team quit, bring a weapon."
--Coach Clark
I would argue that part of the reason for Florida’s success was the unwavering sense that Leak was always QB1, no matter what some fans and/or media might speculate.
The pre-Marino Miami Dolphins also had some success using Don Strock in relief. Whether brought in for reasons of injury or ineffectiveness by the starter, there was never any sense that Strock was going to take over the starter’s job. But he was uncannily successful in doing so. The 1982 Epic in Miami forever cemented Strock’s reputation as the NFL’s greatest reliever, and FWIW it remains the best pro football game I’ve ever seen. Certainly a lot better, from this Chargers fan’s perspective, than the debacle yesterday.
Go Bears!
by California Pete on Jan 18, 2010 7:29 PM PST up reply actions
I think the biggest reason there aren’t success two-QB systems is the fact that coaches will choose 1 QB if anyone is playing well enough to be successful. So it’s not very telling on a 2 QB system being good or bad, just reflecting the nature/popular opinion to go with 1 QB. So there’s a lot of bias in a sample like that…
by Missing Barry on Jan 22, 2010 12:00 PM PST up reply actions
Oh, additional thought on all this. I wonder how much redshirting + sitting on the bench for two years throws off a QB. It can be nearly three years since he threw a meaningful pass in high school until his first action in college. That’s a long time to survive on practice snaps alone.
It can be nearly three years since he threw a meaningful pass in high school until his first action in college
I mean, to a small degree I agree – a game atmosphere with the crowds is different and more meaningful. But practice gives you a ton of game situations, you’re competing for your job every day, they have scrimmages (like the spring scrimmage) that certainly feel “meaningful” (not as much as a game, but still more than just another day of practice for sure)….there are so many chances that I just don’t really agree that they don’t get any meaningful passes during that time. You’re always competing in sports, even in practice.
by Missing Barry on Jan 22, 2010 12:03 PM PST up reply actions
This entire fanpost is premised on the idea that the only way that coaches can get more information about the backups, and that the backup QBs can get experience is by throwing passes in games. This is not true. While attempting passes against a real opponent (as opposed to Cal’s defense) does measure and test a QB’s abilities, it is only one measure of what it takes to be a QB. Tedford has gone on record in many articles stating that there are many abilities required by the QBs to be successful starters. Everything from managing the huddle, managing the clock, knowing the offensive personnel and packages, knowing the defensive formations and tendencies, and leadership. To acquire knowledge about a QB’s abilities in these other areas does not require the QB to attempt a pass.
I believe too much emphasis has been placed on QBs attempting passes. That is only one facet – and a small facet – of actually being a QB in Tedford’s system. Playing time in general is very important, that I will not refute. But I find it inaccurate to assume, as this fanpost seems to suggest, that just because the backup QBs didn’t throw more passes that coaches weren’t learning information and the player wasn’t gaining as much experience.
On the whole though, I do agree that there were many opportunities for backup QBs to see the field and I would have liked to see them on the field more often.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
Eh...
This entire fanpost is premised on the idea that the only way that coaches can get more information about the backups, and that the backup QBs can get experience is by throwing passes in games. This is not true.
I’m sorry, but that’s not true at all. When you start off a piece like that I question whether you’ve really read both parts. Having played two intercollegiate sports, I’m well familiar with practice time and playing games as the starter, a key reserve, and full out on-the-bench guy. I do not disagree about “what makes a starting QB” qualities that come up time and again, and I agree that can happen while practicing. Again, I post this:
Allows coaches to get a better understanding of the talent behind the starter. Occasionally, you find the diamond in the rough (e.g., Matt Cassell). Practice can’t replace live experiences against real competition in front of a sea of blue t-shirts or a hostile road atmosphere. Occasionally, you find players that perform better in games than in practice (Shaun Hill of the 49ers would be an excellent example). Fans, coaches, and players all feel better about next year’s running game after Vereen’s performances against Arizona and Stanfurd. The same confidence if Vereen had continued in his ‘1b’ role that he played. The change in play could be more subtle; a player may mishandle the timing of a screen pass in practice but runs it perfectly in the game; again, this provides more confidence which in turn helps motivation.This will not change the outcome of the game. Gaining/surrendering the lead was not going to happen.
Let’s keep in mind that was key point #2 under the potential benefits part. I don’t think I’ve over-emphasized it as much as I just brought it up. I believe it’s at least worth mentioning. Now, getting back to what you wrote:
But I find it inaccurate to assume, as this fanpost seems to suggest, that just because the backup QBs didn’t throw more passes that coaches weren’t learning information and the player wasn’t gaining as much experience.
There are certain things that cannot be simulated and serve as educational and motivational experiences for the underclassmen. We can debate the ‘magnitude’ of these experiences but to claim they are worthless and miniscule is not the case. With the game well in hand, what’s the risk?
"We lose to Stanford in many sports, but if you want to make a Cal team quit, bring a weapon."
--Coach Clark
I’m sorry, but that’s not true at all. When you start off a piece like that I question whether you’ve really read both parts.
I wrote my above response after reading part I. I still stand by my statement. The entire post hints at the fact that it’s passing that matters – whether you meant that or not. You give Riley’s completion percentage. You note how the backups only handed off the ball – hinting at the fact that they weren’t passing. You mention how they would only throw one or two passes in this game or that game. There is plenty of evidence in this first post suggesting that the most important factor to you seems to be passes attempted – again, whether you meant that or not.
But like I said earlier, I agree backups could have seen more playing time.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
Yeah I’d say my main points are the following: a) they should have played more, b) yes, I think passing is an important and worthwhile part of QB play/live game action, and c) the backups playing was no risk to the outcome of the game at all. How much it helps their development is hearsay.
"We lose to Stanford in many sports, but if you want to make a Cal team quit, bring a weapon."
--Coach Clark
and if you still stand by this part:
the player wasn’t gaining as much experience
Then I disagree completely. Player B would be on the sidelines learning little, instead he gets to be in the game doing real things and then go back to doing the practice reps.
"We lose to Stanford in many sports, but if you want to make a Cal team quit, bring a weapon."
--Coach Clark
In general, I fall a lot closer to Hydrotech’s line of thinking (that seems to happen a lot). I don’t think game situations really provide much growth for a player – at least coming in a few times for garbage time, because it represents such a small amount of the work they put in. Maybe it can serve as a motivational tool I guess, not sure how big of an effect it would have, but I guess I can buy it’s at least plausible to do something. And there’s probably a little bit that can be gained from being in a game situation in terms of just getting a feel for what it’s like, but again, overall it’s a very small part of the work they put in to improve, and barely even scratches the surface of game-like situations they practice over and over again that have the real effect on how good they are.
That said – it was a good post, thanks for the work, and I do think you have a valid point. You came up with plenty of situations where it seems there’s no real reason to keep the backup in. It’s not like I believe it’s going to make the starter any better getting those extra reps….so why not put the backup in earlier than we did? Let him get a feel for commanding the huddle in Autzen. Let him get a chance to see what it’s like to play players/schemes he’s not so familiar with. Probably won’t make much difference from a development stand point, but what’s the harm in doing it?
by Missing Barry on Jan 22, 2010 12:08 PM PST reply actions 2 recs

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