What Should Revenue Sports Pay For on Campus?
There were many intriguing points presented in ragnarok's excellent post on how to resolve the conflicts between academia and athletics at Cal last week. The ensuing discussion was very interesting, and I encourage you to check it out before going onto this post.
For me though, one of the most interesting points was the one TedfordIsGod presented.
I agree with Nader that are priorities are way off when it comes to sports, but in a more nuanced way.
I think one fundamental issue is that we need to decouple football and men’s basketball from all other sports. The "revenue" and the "non-revenue" sports should be viewed as completely separate entities.
It would not be sensible to cut football and basketball, because they are reasonably huge money making operations.
The traditional logic was that "football and basketball pay for the others sports." I assume that is more-or-less true.
But there is absolutely no reason that because football and basketball can cover the costs of the other sports, that they should be used to cover these costs.
Read more about why he feels this way (plus interesting news about the future of Cal athletics that might shape this discussion) after the jump.
For example, the new football (lets no kid ourselves with the 19 sports mumbo-jumbo) facility will be great for the football team, but at the same time, the RSF is not close to sufficient for the rest of the student population (and they charge for it, something didn’t use to be the case.) Wouldn’t a sports facility that benefitted the student body at large have been a much better use of money than something that benefits those 18 other sports. I remember a Daily Cal feature while I was working there about how the softball team had to change in their cars because they didn’t have a locker room. My response was – who cares? If I wanted to play baseball I had to go to Ho Chi Minh field, avoid dogs and children and the elderly, and potentially break my ankle in the various ruts and potholes.
Why shouldn’t football revenue be used to the benefit of the chemistry department? This is obviously the flaw with your cable analogy. If the choice is cuts to chemistry v. having a field hockey team, the choice should be equally obvious – get rid of field hockey.
I see no reason why the university shouldn’t take the noble position that while there are good reasons to have the two major sports ($, people like them, university reputation, etc.), there are much better allocations for the revenue than the non-revenue sports.
Cal field hockey coach Shellie Onstead has been hoping for a locker room for 28 years. In a twist of fate, the football program may be able to provide her with just that.
The Cal athletic department kicked off the Endowment Seating Program-a massive fundraising campaign-on January 1. The program aims to collect between $300 and 325 million dollars by selling the rights to between 40 and 50 years of priority seating at Cal football games. That money will go toward funding athletics across campus, including field hockey.
Ranging in cost from $40,000 to $225,000 per seat, each newly constructed section will include benefits from private restrooms to catered food, drinks and pregame field access.
If the UC Board of Regents votes to pass the project in September, the sale of these 3,000 seats will fund seismic upgrades for Memorial Stadium.
But to spend over $200,000 for a cushioned seat and extra leg room seems absurd. Are there really enough Cal alumni with that much disposable income to burn despite the current economic downturn?
To be brief: yes.
"What we have in present value is $160 million," says Assistant Athletic Director Nate Pine, who arrived at Cal last September with experience fundraising for Oregon State's recent stadium renovation. "What we have when you take out the full thirty year commitment is $293 (million)."
Thus, a program created for the benefit of Cal football could end up benefiting the whole of Cal athletics. Now, this could also be money that benefits the rest of Cal as well and help boost the student experience, power academic events or provide funding for other events that increase the university's prestige. But as of now the ticket program for Memorial Stadium seems designed to help fund all of Cal Athletics, which would be a pleasing outcome regardless of all alternatives.
Now, getting back to the main issue, there are three big counterpoints one could make to TIG's points:
1) Nonrevenue sports contribute to the well-being of the student body. It funds athletes who are generally more well-rounded in academics (not to say that Cal football and basketball players aren't up to speed with the Cal scholar, but Alex Macks and Joe Igbers are generally the exception, not the rule).
2) Nonrevenue sports produce Olympic athletes, which add to California's prestige not only nationwide but internationally as well. For a school that prides itself on a worldwide network of alumni, this could discourage talented international athletes from becoming Golden Bears.
3) Tradition, which I imagine will be what most people will argue for keeping these programs paid up. Cal Athletics has one of the greatest all-around records in all of college sports in terms of NCAA championships won. Strip these sports out and we are pretty bare bones in terms of athletic acheivement.
To which I could see people offering the following refutations.
1) No one watches nonrevenue sports (other than family members), and those that do aren't usually paying top dollar. Financially, these programs will always suffer losses. People who watch revenue sports and pay good sums of money to keep on watching them, and they are a net positive to the university and its alumni. Economically, there is no real reason to keep on propping up sports that are failing financially other than to maintain tradition.
Interestingly enough, doing well in sports, both major and minor, doesn't seem to have dramatic impact on alumni donations. TedfordisGod brought up this key point.
To take this point a bit further, the main assumption is that athletic success leads to greater alumni giving.
But that just isn’t true. An NCAA commissioned study done by Peter Orszag and others concluded…
We conclude that the hypothesis that increased operating expenditures on sports affect other measurable indicators, including alumni giving, is not proven
And certainly, if it is generally true, it is certainly not true for the non-revenue sports. A common refrain from non-revenue backers is that alums who played sports give at higher rates than others. (A claim that may be true, but I would argue that non-revenue athletes probably, on average, have higher socioeconomic status than the average student.)To see just how much is spent on sports at Berkeley, and how much they lose, even after taking all the revenue into account, read this
Conservatively, cutting the non-revenue sports would save 25 million dollars per year or about $1,000 per undergraduate (a shocking sum of money when you think about it. But the other way, in total cost, I would estimate it is costs about $60,000 per year per student athlete if we have about 1,000 athletes on 27 teams. We probably don’t have close to that many. Crazy!)
2) Perhaps nonrevenue sports should go their own route (Olympic sports? I'm pretty sure almost all nonrevenue sports are Olympic sports, save maybe lacrosse) and raise their own money, much like the Cal rugby system (which is, as far as I know, totally self-sufficient). Less scholarships and recruiting money will be available, but in the Internet age it's certainly not as hard to scout for talent as it used to be.
This is certainly not a problem unique to Cal; we are certainly poised to handle the problem better than a majority of universities around the country. But it'll be interesting to see how the university tackles the issue in the weeks and months to come.
So I'll open the discussion up with several questions for you to ponder: Should revenue sports pay for non-revenue sports first and foremost? Should they be expanded to be utilized for academic purposes? A compromise between the two? Any points I missed? Should student-athletes find ways to raise their own money for their activities? What alternative plans do you propose?
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From the perspective of a current, non-athlete student, it really irks me that tuition keeps going up but lots of athletes get free rides. I understand that often athletes (especially football and basketball) realistically wouldn’t qualify or be able to attend Cal if not for athletic scholarships, and I mean in no way to belittle the hard work they put in or their tremendous achievements or to suggest that athletes are bad people. I love the diversity that our athletes bring to Cal, especially our international ones. But in the light of this economic crisis and the drastic cuts to Cal’s overall budget, it’s really frustrating to see less classes, fewer sections, and whole departments being considered for downsizing while money is being spent on the non-revenue sports. I read a year or two ago that Ohio State’s football team contributed $6 million to build a new library. Cal football and basketball could be paying for a host of academic services, contributing to the redevelopment of Lower Sproul (if it ever happens), and so much more.
Are there plans to redevelop Lower Sproul?
Supreme Leader Ayatollah TwistNHook!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
They’ve started a process of choosing new vendors for some spaces. Heavenly Healthy foods is leaving because they wanted to double their rent. The board is trying to bring in Panda Express to share the space with Naia because Naia is bleeding, but a lot of students are protesting Panda because a) it’s a chain, and there aren’t chains on campus b) their whole system (food, packaging, distribution) is really not eco friendly and sustainable. But the hope is that if Panda comes to campus, the extra revenue they bring in to the Auxiliary will fund the redevelopment.
So, if I understand you correctly, they want to alter some of the food vendors next to the Bear’s Lair to raise money to redevelop the Lower Sproul Plaza itself. But do you know what the proposed plans are for the Plaza itself? Or are they not quite at that level? I’m just sorta interested.
Supreme Leader Ayatollah TwistNHook!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
They sent out a survey to all student group “agents” last semester. Though I don’t exactly remember all of the options, they were considering: music space, academic space (study rooms), club space (offices and storage), a multicultural center, and some other stuff. Check out http://studentcenter.berkeley.edu/
I've said like a billion times
Put an In-N-Out somewhere in Lower Sproul. Most profitable In-N-Out EVER.
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by Avinash Kunnath on Jul 29, 2009 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
You're actually on to something
My senior year they put in a Quizno’s in the basement of Carmichael Towers (the four largest dorms on campus) and included it on the meal plan.
By the end of the year, in terms of total revenue, it was regularly among the Top 5 and frequently the #1 Quizno’s in the nation.
rec’d animal style
CGB: Optimism is dead to us.
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 30, 2009 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions
It doesn’t really make sense to compare athletes (at least in the revenue sports) to real students. They’re more like unpaid employees. Or if you factor in the scholarships, just employees.
by HolmoePhobe on Jul 29, 2009 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions
I think you have some points about the emphasis on athletes vs. other students, but every time I see an argument like this, it makes me think – why are the athletes the only ones singled out? Most schools have arts and theater programs that give kids scholarships for music or acting or other endevours, but nobody ever brings them up. So I ask, what makes the athlete with a scholarship different from the kid with the music scholarship?
by Missing Barry on Jul 29, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Some might argue that acting and painting are as academic as football…
CGB: Optimism is dead to us.
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 30, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh hey maybe I should read the rest of the comments before posting bdarrrr
CGB: Optimism is dead to us.
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 30, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions
It also bugs me that the academic standards for an institution are different for athletes and non-athletes. While the musician may get a scholarship, he had to get admitted under the same system as everyone else. The same can’t be said for athletes.
It also bugs me that the academic standards for an institution are different for revenue sport athletes and non-athletes. While the musician may get a scholarship, he had to get admitted under the same system as everyone else. The same can’t be said for revenue sport athletes.
Fixed.
CGB: Wasting Your Potential, Your Time, & Your Life Since 2006.
I’m not sure what this means, exactly. What sports qualify under revenue sports? I know they flag athletes of sports like swimming (which I assume doesn’t fall under revenue?) and they get in easier than normal students.
by Missing Barry on Jul 30, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions
By revenue sports I mean football and basketball. A few programs that are highly touted, like swimming, may also have students that get in easier, but even those standards won’t be as lax as the ones for football and basketball.
By and large though, the kids who doing fencing or field hockey or sports like probably don’t have an easier time of getting in than we do.
CGB: Wasting Your Potential, Your Time, & Your Life Since 2006.
I’m almost positive that swimmers get in easier, even if they’re not Natalie Coughlin. The senior class of my high school sent a number of students to Cal, and all but one were amongst the very highest achieving students in the class. The other person won a scholarship to Cal to be on the swim team, and while that person wasn’t by any means unintelligent, it was also obvious that they wouldn’t have had a chance at admission to Cal without their athletic ability.
So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!
I think there is a perception that athletes could not make it to Cal were it not for their athletic skill and, thus, athletic scholarship. I do not think there is a similar perception for musicians or arts people.
Supreme Leader Ayatollah TwistNHook!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
Though I’m not an admissions officer, I’m under the impression “the arts”, let’s call them, can also get students in to institutions bypassing academic standards as well. Basically their “arts abilities” are the difference between acceptance and rejection at said institution.
“One is an academic scholarship. The other is for playing sports.”
Ask any non-D1 athlete what kind of scholarship they have. They get “academic” scholarships, too. :)
“Oh hi there, fellow GSOM poster. But anyway, my deal is that music/arts/theater are valid academic disciplines (ie you can get a degree in theater studies, not zone blocking).”
I suppose, though their degrees are about as valid as a sports management degree, for instance. Good luck getting a real job with one of those…
by Missing Barry on Jul 29, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Ultimately, even if the person is accepted for their arts skill in lieu of their academic achievement, there is no perception that that is the case. It’s about the perception here. People think that the artistic people are smart AND have art skills, while people think that the athletic people are dumb, BUT have athletic skills. I make no statement as to the validity of those perceptions.
Supreme Leader Ayatollah TwistNHook!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
Fair enough, I can agree with the perception.
by Missing Barry on Jul 29, 2009 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions
If you really think athletes are on par academically with non-athlete arts majors, I’ve got a bridge in Alaska I’d like to sell you.
See, this is a prime example of the perception. There are thousands and thousands of collegiate athletes in America. There are thousands and thousands of collegiate artists (music, theatre, painting etc etc) in America. It’s unclear to me how we could ever make ANY determination whether who is more academically able. Nonetheless, people seem to be very strong in the belief that it is collegiate artists.
Supreme Leader Ayatollah TwistNHook!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
There are mountains of evidence to support this, but I’ll give you the obvious statistics:
In the BCS conferences, the average football player SAT score is 220 lower than the average student, and 115 less than the average non-football athlete.
Average student does not equal average arts student.
Supreme Leader Ayatollah TwistNHook!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
Either you greatly lack self-awareness or are conceding the weakness of your argument with a wry joke.
Supreme Leader Ayatollah TwistNHook!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
Yes, my argument is weak because it statistically demonstrates that football players perform worse academically than non-football players.
Your argument, which assumes without any evidence whatsoever that arts students perform worse academically than non-arts students, is much stronger.
We are not comparing non-football players with football players.
We are comparing art people with football players. Art people is a subset of non-football players.
Moreover, my argument the entire time has not been that art students perform worse or better. It has been that it’s dangerous to try to make comparisons, because we lack knowledge. And that comparisons are made based off of perception. I see where these perceptions come from, especially when you make inaccurate comparisons up there. Like I said I make no statement regarding the validity of these perceptions. It is a complex situation.
Supreme Leader Ayatollah TwistNHook!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
Unless there’s a compelling reason to believe that arts students perform worse than other non-football players, my comparison is valid, because it provides evidence that football players perform worse than non-football-players.
So, if I understand you correctly: apples, in specific, are better than meat, because you proved (without citing to any source) that fruit, as an overarching group, is better than meat. And this is proven even more true, because I can’t provide statistics to prove an argument I never made?
Supreme Leader Ayatollah TwistNHook!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
You did make that argument. You said “Average student does not equal average arts student”. Again, there’s no reason to believe that is true.
I see where the confusion is. You think I was making a determination of better or worse when I said “equal.”
What I was saying, to clarify, was that we are comparing arts students here and football students. You were comparing students overall with football students. I was saying that it is an incorrect comparison group, not that average students are better or worse than average art students. Hopefully, that clears up the miscommunication and sheds some light as to my thought process.
Supreme Leader Ayatollah TwistNHook!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
But if average art students are not significantly better or worse than average students, then you could compare art students to football players by transitive relation.
I have no information before me regarding whether average art students are not significantly better or worse than average students and have no interest in speculating at this time. It is a fruitless exercise rife with misunderstandings and internet arguments.
Supreme Leader Ayatollah TwistNHook!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
mother of god
CGB: Optimism is dead to us.
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 30, 2009 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s also ridiculous to say the average football player at a BCS conference is even close to representative of the population of college athletes. Another point, while most college athletes are benefitting from the system (a college scholarship is certainly nice, and it’s not like their athletic accomplishments are bringing in more money than they get from their scholarship), BCS conference football players are getting screwed by the system. If you paid them wages based on the income they earn the school, it’d be worth a lot more than their scholarship…
by Missing Barry on Jul 29, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Again, another perfect example of this perception in action here.
I’d say that arts in many ways can include academic pursuits to them, but then again so can athletics. And arts can be just as removed from academics as athletics are.
Supreme Leader Ayatollah TwistNHook!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
How is arts being academic an example of the perception that “People think that the artistic people are smart AND have art skills, while people think that the athletic people are dumb, BUT have athletic skills.”?
The arts are part of academia. That’s why the Music Department and Art History Department at Cal are part of the College of Letters and Sciences, and the “Football Department” isn’t.
As for arts being part of the college as compared to football not being in it, that’s because Cal has chosen to have a Music Degree. If they choose to have a football degree (and I’m pretty sure Hydro majored in Footballogy!), then they’d have to put it as part of a school. They do not have it as a degree, so they do not have it.
I think certain arts being chosen as a degree program while football is not, stems from the perceived amount of mental activity involved. People believe that athletics involves minimal mental activity, while arts involves MUCH mental activity. If HydroTech has taught me one thing, it’s that football involves a LOT of mental activity.
Also, art history is not an art, it’s a history.
Supreme Leader Ayatollah TwistNHook!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
Art history is an academic field that deals with art.
You couldn’t have a football degree because football is not an academic discipline. Music is.
I dunno, if Coach Gregory created a class called the “The History of the 3-4 Defense”, I’d attend every lecture.
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by Avinash Kunnath on Jul 29, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
The DeCal?
I believe so. Math 198?
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by Avinash Kunnath on Jul 29, 2009 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Art history is an academic field that deals with the history of art. You could just as easily have an academic field that deals with the history of football. People have decided that that should not be the case and so it is not. There is nothing fundamentally different between art and history in that regard, however. They are just as prone to “history.”
I did not major or minor in music at Cal, but I have taken some music courses. They tend to consist of the following:
1. Historical courses about specific topics, such as jazz music.
2. Education classes about certain items, such as the javanese gamelin (at least I think thats what that class was about, I saw it every semester but never took it).
3. Theoretical classes about music theory.
4. Application classes where you play. These are the best! They tend to meld together with the theory classes.
Now, were I to suggest a footballogy degree, it’d be something like this:
1. Historical classes about specific topics, such as the NFL.
2. Educational classes about certain items, such as, say, safety gear.
3. Theoretical classes, kinda like what Hydro does from time to time.
4. Application classes where you play. These would be the best. I bet they would tend to meld together with the theory classes.
So, my point is that there is nothing particularily fundamentally different between music and football that leads to one being a degree and the other not. Both require a special set of skills. Both, however, have a whole educational industry that non-skilled people could still learn about.
However, decisions have been made previously that do not have football be a degree. My point is that this stems from the perception that football is not as respected an academic pursuit as the arts and that football people are stupid compared to arts people. If I understand you correctly, you seem to believe that there is something more fundamentally academic to arts than football. I disagree with that.
Supreme Leader Ayatollah TwistNHook!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
you seem to believe that there is something more fundamentally academic to arts than football. I disagree with that.
I would disagree with that as well. However, I might claim that what art students do within their curriculum is more academic than what (most) football players do (when participating in football activities). I think you could certainly build an academic curriculum around football as an area of study, but it would a) have to be much more rigorous and thorough about a broader range of topics than I think any football program currently encompasses, and b) it might still not contain enough subject matter to warrant its own major. Maybe a minor.
So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!
…you could make that argument about any field.
You could say engineering consists of historical, educational, theoretical, and application-based classes. So are engineering and football equally academic?
This might be a little controversial, but engineering and football could be equally academic. They are not now, but they could be.
Supreme Leader Ayatollah TwistNHook!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
Evidently you have a different definition of academics from the rest of the world. That would explain our disagreement in the above comments.
I’ve said the ENTIRE TIME that there is a certain perception here (ostensibly by the “rest of the world”). And that the perception was that football was less mental, less academic, and more application, more physical. I am not sure this is true and am unable to pass judgment as to whether the perception regarding specifically art students v. football students is true. And due to this perception certain decisions were made about whether to have a football major.
Supreme Leader Ayatollah TwistNHook!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
Another example is that my wife went to a musical conservatory for a period of time. They required her to take “well-rounded academic” classes on things like History and English and whatnot. She viewed them with the same level of frustration and disdain that I am sure many football players do towards their own athletics.
Supreme Leader Ayatollah TwistNHook!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
Though fine arts certainly have their place in the university for non-scholarship students, the students who are receiving scholarships for fine arts are receiving them for their skills in the fine arts just as surely as athletes are receiving scholarships for their athletic prowess.
That’s like saying “students who are receiving scholarships for academics are receiving them for their skills in academics”. That’s kind of the point.
I disagree.
The ability to paint, act, dance, or sculpt doesn’t necessarily correlate to a stellar academic ability. That scholarship only recognizes their exceptional ability in that particular discipline. Likewise the ability to catch a pass or hit a ball doesn’t say much about your grasp of the hard sciences either.
Merit-based scholarships awarded as a result of total academic profile do not recognize excellence in a particular discipline so much as they recognize excellence across disciplines. Big difference.
HEY FUCK YOU
just kidding.
CGB: Optimism is dead to us.
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 30, 2009 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Again, shifting the focus back to non-D1 athletes. Do you really believe their “academic” scholarships are truly academic, or is it to get around rules against athletic scholarships?
by Missing Barry on Jul 29, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s pretty easy, if you aren’t D1, you don’t have athletic scholarships.
by Missing Barry on Jul 29, 2009 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Also, physical education used to be a very important part of a college/university’s curriculum. That has obviously faded, but as an example, some schools still have swim tests as a requirement for graduation.
ooo, that gives me an idea!
they should line up the graduates at one end of an olympic-sized swimming pool, a stack of diplomas at the other. and the engineering students aren’t allowed to build robots that swim.
So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!
Are the PoliSci majors allowed to try to convince others to do the swimming for them and then bring the diploma back?
Supreme Leader Ayatollah TwistNHook!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
What about robots that fly?
CGB: Optimism is dead to us.
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 30, 2009 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions
oy
no robots. no surrogates. no nothing. it’s like the goblet of fire.
So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!
Wow – you’re right!! I forgot that actually spending your life doing something that you love and getting paid to do it is WAY WORSE than having a “real job” where your soul is slowly sucked out, day after mind-numbing day. It’s much better to just slowly die from the inside out.
Actually, I should thank you – people like you just make me love my life that much more.
Thanks!
CGB: Wasting Your Potential, Your Time, & Your Life Since 2006.
Hmmm…that’s an interesting way to completely misinterpret a comment. Actually discussing this issue in the context of the conversation we were having, being a dancer is much like being an athlete – those skills aren’t any more “academic” or transferable to the majority of other professions. If I could be a professional athlete, it’d be awesome and of course I would pursue that opportunity, I’m just making the point that somehow an athletic scholarship is not academic while an arts scholarship (for dancing in this example) is, and so somehow it’s ok to single out the athletes for their scholarships?
by Missing Barry on Jul 30, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions
I suppose, though their degrees are about as valid as a sports management degree, for instance. Good luck getting a real job with one of those…
I didn’t take issue with the whole comment – just the part about implying that a job in the arts (that one might ostensibly get with ‘one of those degrees’) was not ‘a real job’. I beg to differ, and submit to you that is as much a real job as any other. My frustration was simply vented because I am constantly told that what I do is not ‘a real job’. it grates on the nerves after a while.
Returning to the conversation, I think dance is considered more “academic” than football because of the creativity and study involved. Players don’t create plays, offensive or defensive schemes, etc. Dance majors have to create dances themselves, and also choreograph dances for others. So not only are you creating original pieces, you’re directing others as well. The dance major (at Cal at least) also involves quite a bit of theoretical study. Not only dance theory, but theories of performance – performativity of culture, performativity of gender, performativity of race, etc. etc. They study how art affects us and the world around us, and how it contributes to society as a whole. This is only part of the whole picture, but I think you get the point. From this standpoint, in the current systems, dance has more of an academic basis than football.
Also, you don’t have to be a good dancer to be a dance major. Just ‘cause you love something doesn’t necessarily make you great at it. You probably have to be good enough to pass the actual dance classe, but you don’t ahve to be amazing. With football, if you don’t cut the mustard, you’re off the team.
Also, in the Cal discussion, it’s all kinda moot because the TDPS department doesn’t offer academic assistance.
CGB: Wasting Your Potential, Your Time, & Your Life Since 2006.
Well, this just goes back to TwistNHook’s point…
by Missing Barry on Jul 30, 2009 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Other group left out
Whenever I see this argument about the qualifications of student-athletes it reminds of the other group that always gets a pass. The legacy/donor special admits. I couldn’t find a reference for this but at Cal something just under 5% of the student body are special admits for people who contribute to the university or who otherwise are special (non-sports). Why don’t we complain about them? Same reason we shouldn’t complain about the student athletes, they contribute something special to the university.
Good knowledge. I knew there were other cases, just couldn’t think of what they were at the time.
by Missing Barry on Jul 29, 2009 9:37 PM PDT up reply actions
I think all scholarship student-athletes should have to repay their “free ride” if they don’t graduate.
"We lose to Stanford in many sports, but if you want to make a Cal team quit, bring a weapon."
--Coach Clark
This is an interesting concept. Those who leave early for professional sports can easily pay back the amount once they’re signed and it will be a greater incentive to get everyone to graduate (though Tedford brought football’s graduation rate to about 88% if I recall correctly). If this ever becomes reality, I wouldn’t mind seeing it applied to those who receive general academic scholarships from Cal too (though they probably graduate at a very high rate).
Do you think students who transfer out (like James Montgomery) should pay back their scholarships?
Whose domicile? OUR DOMICILE!
I’m ok applying it to all NCAA student-athletes (including transfers) at all schools as well as all students who accept scholarships.
I would love to see them say “Well, we’re bringing them here to play football.”
To me, taking that line would ensure that this isn’t amateur competition at all. It’s low level pro ball.
It would also encourage student-athletes to actually be students instead of taking the Ron Dayne schedule (music, PE, golf). It might even lead to less students leaving early because they’ll actually enjoy other aspects of college and not just sports and loose women.
"We lose to Stanford in many sports, but if you want to make a Cal team quit, bring a weapon."
--Coach Clark
But very few NCAA student-athletes even go professional in sports – they’re no different than the rest of us? Why should they have to pay back their scholarships?
Again, I think that too much of the argument is being looked way too much from the perspective of football. The majority of NCAA student-athletes are not football players. Football and men’s basketball are the exceptions rather than the rule. Someone with a field hockey scholarship or a fencing scholarship shouldn’t be expected pay back a scholarship, since there’s no expectation that they’ll make any more money than the rest of us would. Also, keep in mind that the majority of football and basketball players don’t go professional either – it doesn’t make any sense for them to pay their scholarships back either. Really, the more I think about it, the whole concept of paying back scholarships doesn’t make any sense to me – if that were the case, we’d just call them “loans”, not scholarships.
I think there’s a dangerous line being crossed by putting athletes in a different “category” than the rest of us. They’re students, just like we are. Some schools offer band scholarships – should those students be punished for being really good musicians? Scholarships exist to reward students for theie excellence and the diversity of experience that they can bring to the university. Maybe it’s athletic, maybe it’s music, maybe it’s art, maybe it’s mathematics. We all love our football team and want it to do well – those players that have football scholarships add to the diversity of our experience at Cal. In exchange, they get a chance at an excellent education that maybe they wouldn’t have had otherwise. I see nothing wrong with rewarding extraordinary talent, whatever field the expertise may lay, with a chance to broaden the breadth and depth of the student body.
CGB: Wasting Your Potential, Your Time, & Your Life Since 2006.
by BearStage on Jul 31, 2009 1:14 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well said, and earlier when I was unintentionally insulting you, it was meant in the context of how ridiculous I think it is that some people want to single out scholarship atheletes or anyone else that has a scholarship or got admitted with help from something besides their academic resume. My only point was that athletes are similar to something like the arts in what they do, and I have respect for both, and respect for the skills they bring to the table that most people don’t have. A diversity of skills besides your normal academic skills like reading, writing and arithmetic is a good thing, and should be celebrated rather than looked down upon – especially given the time commitment these activities require. The most important point is these students do have something positive to contribute to their university, which is why they’re there, it just may not be the same thing the “average student” contributes. I think you summed it up best when you said, “I see nothing wrong with rewarding extraordinary talent, whatever field the expertise may lay, with a chance to broaden the breadth and depth of the student body.”
by Missing Barry on Jul 31, 2009 5:59 AM PDT up reply actions
Ohio State is Ohio State. We’re Cal. They have an extra 35,000 to 40,000 people at their games all year long. They probably charge more for tickets too. I don’t think you can just assume that Cal Football or Cal Basketball should or even could pay for a new library. Both of those programs have enough problems keeping themselves afloat aside from paying for non-revenue non-scholarship athletes.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
clarification:
Both of those programs have enough problems keeping themselves afloat in addition to paying for non-revenue sports and non-scholarship athletes.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
problems staying afloat?
Didn’t someone just post this elsewhere? The athletic department had revenue upwards of 30mil this year. But yes, Ohio State’s revenue was a multiple of that.
revenue above costs from the big sports
should go to both non-revenue sports, and to additional student activities imo.
the excess revenue we’re talking about is not enough to make a dent in academics.
Go Bears Go
Now I’m no big city lawyer, but doesn’t Title IX make this decision for us?
by paleodan on Jul 29, 2009 2:48 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
You guys seem to have this bizarre conception that academics is a specific, narrow field containing I don’t know what – only science? – and that everything outside academics is equally distant from it, whether that be arts or athletics.
Problem is, that’s not what academics means – or arts for that matter. Literature is generally categorized as an art – does that mean literature and athletics are equally non-academic?
You don’t get a degree for writing a book in the English major, last I checked. You get a degree for studying and writing about books. Whereas dance, art, even sports are all performance-based disciplines.
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by Avinash Kunnath on Jul 29, 2009 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions
In other words, in the dance, theater and art fields you produce and create, in football and basketball you’re actually forced to work in the spotlight, whereas in literature you’re learning to synthesize original ideas and provide your own spin on things. So you’re more an analyst/critic than a creator. At least that’s my experience with the social sciences.
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by Avinash Kunnath on Jul 29, 2009 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Along these lines, the fundamental difference I see is the skills needed. In real academic fields, many of the skills are very transferable to many different fields. I don’t see literature as an art – if you learn to write well (as an English major, for instance), that’s a skill required in most academic fields and professions. Math based fields such as engineering take the math skills that are transferable across lots of other academic fields and professions. That is, the skills necessary for these things will be found in common through true academic fields (though, of course, some academic fields will have more in common with certain other fields and less with others).
Athletics, like arts such as theatre and dance and music, generally have specialized skills that are largely unrelated to the academic fields. The kid with the scholarship in question, has that scholarship because of those specialized skills that are largely unrelated to academic skills.
by Missing Barry on Jul 29, 2009 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Do they hand out scholarships specific to other types of majors, such as literature or math? Or is it just a general scholarship?
Supreme Leader Ayatollah TwistNHook!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
Um, that’s a question beyond my knowledge. I had a couple of suitemates one year who had the top science scholarships at my school, but I don’t know if technically they were actually science scholarships or general scholarships.
by Missing Barry on Jul 29, 2009 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions
science rocks and we should cut/close down other fluffy departments.
"We lose to Stanford in many sports, but if you want to make a Cal team quit, bring a weapon."
--Coach Clark
by carp on Jul 29, 2009 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Let’s start with anything that ends with the word “Studies”.
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by Avinash Kunnath on Jul 29, 2009 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
You ever notice that things with the word “Science” in them are never actually Sciences. Political Science, for one!
Supreme Leader Ayatollah TwistNHook!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
And the only one?
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by Avinash Kunnath on Jul 29, 2009 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Also anything that starts with [ethnicity] ______.
CGB: Optimism is dead to us.
by Spazzy Mcgee on Jul 30, 2009 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions
One last plea...
Okay, I guess being the only voice for the arts here, I’m the lone dude screaming in the empty desert, but please just let me say this:
Theatre and dance at Cal is not just “art.” The TDPS (Theater, Dance and Performance Studies) department at Cal offers two majors: Theater and Performance Studies, or Dance and Performance Studies. TDPS majors at Cal have major reading assignments, just like the rest of you do. We have classes that require 10 or more books, just like you do. We study and critically analyze texts and essays and theories, just like you do. We have to write 20-page research papers, just like the rest of you do. It is by no means simply a performance-based curriculum. We study Foucault and theories of postmodernism. We study aspects of sociology, psychology, and political science. We study racism and how they affect the world. The list goes on and on.
What we also do, what we do on top of all that, is create. After a full day of classes and study, we spend more time almost every night in rehearsal creating characters, choreographing dances; this requires more study and personal work outside the rehearsal space as well. We spend most of our nights and weekends in the theatre or dance studio, and then we go home and do the same amount of homework and assignments that other students have.
This is not meant to be angry, this is not meant to be a rant – please don’t take it that way. I’m just trying to impart to you guys how hard we work, and how the major as Cal is just as ‘academic’ as any other.
One thing more before I finish. I’ve been on both sides of the ball – I was a chemistry and biology major for 3-1/2 years before I studied theatre. Having done both, I would honestly say that both science and theatre are equally as time consuming, and take up just as much brain power, energy and effort. One’s not any easier than the other – they’re just different.
Thanks for listening.
CGB: Wasting Your Potential, Your Time, & Your Life Since 2006.
by BearStage on Jul 31, 2009 2:01 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
I’m not sure why you think you are the only one speaking out for the arts when I was saying almost the exact same thing about music. I just was ALSO listing football in the mix and I think that was foreign to some.
Supreme Leader Ayatollah TwistNHook!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
It’s this “no one listens to what Twist says” problem.
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by Avinash Kunnath on Jul 31, 2009 9:13 AM PDT up reply actions
You’re right – it floated right out of my head amidst the sea of other comments to the contrary.
Towards the end there, the conversation drifted more towards theatre/dance, I was thinking I was alone from the perspective of being an arts major, but clearly I was not the only one on my side of the argument – besides the fact that you have perspective that I lack in terms of studying music.
My apologies.
CGB: Wasting Your Potential, Your Time, & Your Life Since 2006.

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