The Official Hate Mack Brown Thread
by Avinash on Dec 5, 2009 8:48 PM PST
82 comments
Since most of us don't want to talk about the Cal game, let's talk about how much we hate Mack Brown and Texas. I'll leave it to ch0ster.
Funny that Mack Brown would say he doesn’t believe in "style points." That’s precisely what he used against Cal’s close win against Southern Miss in ’04. Fuck that asshole.
That, adding to that awful clock management at the end, and their total inability to do anything...TCU deserves to be in the title game. I hope Alabama puts up 50 on that hypocritical motherfucker. ROLL TIDE.
The opinions expressed in a FanPost are, in every way, reflective of the opinions of every California Golden Blogs Marshawnthusiast. Moreover, they are reflective of every employee of SBNation, including Tyler "Blez" Bleszinski.
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TCU! TCU! TCU! TCU!
"It ain't over till it's over." - Yogi Berra
by 49er16 on Dec 5, 2009 8:56 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Texas Christian
They don’t deserve to be in the title game.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 5, 2009 9:05 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Why not?
The #1 greatest threat to America: BEARS
by norcalnick on Dec 5, 2009 9:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Reasoning
Texas was ranked inside the top three. One of the top two teams lost, so therefore Texas easily gets in if they run the table.
Plus, you could argue that Cincinnati played a tougher schedule than Texas Christian. You could also argue that Texas Christian wouldn’t have beaten Texas Tech, Oklahoma State, Oklahoma and Nebraska.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 6, 2009 8:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I really don’t care who was ranked where before the games were played today. All I care about is who has the better resume. I haven’t analyzed it in depth yet (check Doc Saturday – he’ll probably do that better than I could soon) but I suspect Texas does have the better resume by a very very slim margin.
Texas’s four best wins, in order:
41-14 @ Ok St.
34-24 vs. Texas Tech
16-13 vs. Oklahoma
13-12 vs. Nebraska (“neutral” site)
TCU’s four best wins, in order:
38-7 @ BYU
55-28 vs. Utah
14-10 @ Clemson
30-14 @ Virginia (debatable – you could put a road win over Air Force or a road destruction of Wyoming here – their isn’t a 4th good team on TCU’s schedule)
Cincinnati’s 4 best wins
45-44 @ Pittsburgh
28-18 @ Oregon St.
24-21 vs. West Virginia
47-15 @ Rutgers
Thoughts: Ranked teams beaten: Texas – 2 TCU: 2 Cincinnati: 3
If you look at all of this information and conclude that Texas is obviously the team that should be picked, then I think you might be influenced by the name recognition. I think Cincinnati has beaten two teams better than any team Texas has beaten and I think TCU has done a better job of badly beating the teams they play while Texas has had too many close calls. Texas may have the better resume, but it’s nowhere near a slam dunk
The #1 greatest threat to America: BEARS
by norcalnick on Dec 6, 2009 11:53 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
BUT THEY ARE RANKED HIGHER!!!!! THE RANKINGS ARE GOSPEL! BLASPHEMER!!!!!!!
All aboard the Jahvid Best rickshaw!
by rollonubears on Dec 6, 2009 12:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Texas
They were ranked higher all along, so yeah, they’re obviously going to the title game. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, but it’s just how it is.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 6, 2009 11:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not saying it’s right or wrong,
[TCU doesn’t] deserve to be in the title game.
"Let me tell you a story. I was a political prisoner for two years. The instant I was released I ran to McDonald's. I had a Big Mac and a Coke.
It was fantastic."
-Toyama Koichi, US Presidential candidate from Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZqOkeYbB0
by AERose on Dec 6, 2009 11:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Texas had a higher computer ranking than Texas Christian. I’d rather give the nod to Texas.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 6, 2009 11:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Schedules
Texas beat Oklahoma State, Texas Christian beat Brigham Young.
Texas beat Nebraska, Texas Christian beat Utah.
Texas beat Texas Tech, Texas Christian beat Clemson.
After those wins, which are pretty equal, Texas played tougher opponents.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 6, 2009 11:15 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
you’re shit at keeping your story straight.
"Let me tell you a story. I was a political prisoner for two years. The instant I was released I ran to McDonald's. I had a Big Mac and a Coke.
It was fantastic."
-Toyama Koichi, US Presidential candidate from Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZqOkeYbB0
by AERose on Dec 6, 2009 11:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No
I think I’m just misunderstood.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 6, 2009 11:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
To be misunderstood is to be GREAT!
President Emperor Warlord Of The Sun!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
by TwistNHook on Dec 7, 2009 8:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Texas’s wins have been far less impressive than TCU. They slugged their way through Oklahoma, they played sloppily against Colorado, they had to outscore Texas A&M, they nearly brainfarted away Nebraska…their only real impressive win is going into Stillwater and smoking the Cowboys.
By contrast, TCU has wasted everyone on their slate, other than Clemson or Air Force. They might’ve played weaker teams, but they did what they were supposed to do.
Email: bearsnecessities@gmail.com
by Avinash on Dec 7, 2009 3:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Texas Christian
If they played Texas Tech, Oklahoma and Colorado, maybe they would have won by that same margin. They played teams weaker than those teams.
Also, maybe Texas would have done “what they were supposed to do” if they got to play UNLV, San Diego State and New Mexico instead of Oklahoma, Texas Tech and Colorado. Their wins may have been weaker, but their schedule was stronger.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 7, 2009 3:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So what you’re saying is that it evens out.
Ergo, victorious.
Email: bearsnecessities@gmail.com
by Avinash on Dec 7, 2009 4:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe they would have won by that same margin
If you’re basing your choice on what might happen, you’re wading into very dangerously unfair waters. You’re supposed to judge teams on what has happened
The #1 greatest threat to America: BEARS
by norcalnick on Dec 7, 2009 8:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Okay
Here is what happened. Texas played the tougher schedule.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 7, 2009 2:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
...And barely made it through unscathed.
Which is the point everyone is trying to make, if I am interpreting correctly.
by rurata on Dec 7, 2009 10:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, but it’s just how it is.
Except that you advocate this exact logic – it’s exactly the type of reasoning you’ve used time and again when discussing rankings, so it seems to me you are saying it’s right…
by Missing Barry on Dec 7, 2009 10:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Good stuff rec'd
Email: bearsnecessities@gmail.com
by Avinash on Dec 7, 2009 3:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Go somewhere else with your logic.
Email: bearsnecessities@gmail.com
by Avinash on Dec 5, 2009 9:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
For the first time in ages, there are no recommended fanposts on CGB. It’s time for that to change.
Texas’s schedule this year is pathetic. I would so much rather see TCU or Cincinnati in the title game. If you only manage to beat a team with 100 yards of total offense by 2, and it takes a horsecollar at the end to do it, you just might not be worthy of the title game
The #1 greatest threat to America: BEARS
by norcalnick on Dec 5, 2009 9:10 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
What makes me angry
Was Brent and Kirk saying that if Nebraska wins it will put the BCS into chaos? Really why?! It’s not like there aren’t three undefeated teams remaining! Pick two of them to play. Hell Cincinnati is a BCS team!
And now that Texas won why do they deserve to go to the NCG? Why not Cinci? Why not TCU? They’re all undefeated. They’ve all had close games. They’ve all blown other teams out. And arguably Cinci and TCU has had a better OOC schedule.
In other words, Go Bears!
by royrules22 on Dec 5, 2009 9:14 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Someone respond to this!
In other words, Go Bears!
by royrules22 on Dec 6, 2009 1:07 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
You responded to it!
Email: bearsnecessities@gmail.com
by Avinash on Dec 6, 2009 1:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Flagged for whoring
President Emperor Warlord Of The Sun!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
by TwistNHook on Dec 6, 2009 5:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
rec’d for whoring
The Lack of Mack's Imposition Attacks My Disposition.
by Spazzy Mcgee on Dec 7, 2009 12:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Texas should not have won that game.
I wanted to see an extra second of hang time or hesitation on that last ball just to see Colt cry too. Oh, and Mack Brown sucks for being a hypocrite.
by trisweb on Dec 5, 2009 9:14 PM PST reply actions 5 recs
Oh that would have been too much, with Tebow and McCoy both crying… Too bad that football didn’t stay in the air a little longer.
by paleodan on Dec 7, 2009 2:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
on that note, i read something about the legality of reviwing time left on the clock
Here are the official rules for review.
There is a list of eligible plays that can be reviewed. The only one I found on the clock is this one:
f. Clock adjustment when a ruling on the field is reversed.
But no play was reversed on that reviewing.
Article 4. No other plays or officiating decisions are reviewable.
I know clock adjustment at the end of a half should be reviewable, but is it ? Should Texas not have been able to kick the field goal?
by racsan on Dec 7, 2009 3:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You’re forgetting about the all important “If Mack Brown whines about it” clause.
by The Wrecking Jew on Dec 7, 2009 10:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I like everything you stand for.
President Emperor Warlord Of The Sun!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
by TwistNHook on Dec 7, 2009 11:35 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
TCU’s best non-con victory: Clemson
Cincinnati’s best: Oregon St.
Texas’s best: Uhhhhh…Wyoming? UTEP?
Advantage: Not Texas
The #1 greatest threat to America: BEARS
by norcalnick on Dec 5, 2009 9:22 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Fuck Mack Brown
Whining little bitch, style points don’t matter???
Vereening off into the future....
by Calbear98 on Dec 5, 2009 9:25 PM PST reply actions 4 recs
Since the SEC—even the SEC West—probably is stronger, top-to-bottom than the WAC, Mtn West, Big 12, and Big East, and since Alabama had the most impressive season finale, I’m fine with them getting one of the two spots. But can anyone really say that TCU, Boise, Cincy, or Texas, has had a demonstrably more impressive season than the others? They all had some close calls, and they all own some impressive wins.
Normally, I’d be inclined to put extra weight on how the teams ended the season, considering it a quasi-playoff situation. The problem is that both Cincy and Texas nearly failed their tests, while TCU and Boise really didn’t have a test.
So I say, forget the undefeated teams. Let’s take the champions of what everyone recognizes as the top two conferences this year—the Pac-10 and the SEC—and have them fight it out for the title. After all, if this was boxing, the title fight that we’d all be clamoring for would be Oregon vs. Alabama. THAT would be a great game.
Go Bears!
by California Pete on Dec 5, 2009 9:33 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I’m still guessing beating Oklahoma, Okie State and Nebraska will put them over the top.
Whether the WINS were impressive is another factor.
Email: bearsnecessities@gmail.com
by Avinash on Dec 5, 2009 9:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is a post I can get behind.
And to think I sort of liked UT long ago. But now I hate Mack Brown and his lucky-as-hell team.
Oh and I hate those new iphone commericals almost as much.
MCCLESKEY!!
by Paulie on Dec 5, 2009 9:36 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
rec'd
I hate texas. Put TCU or Cinci in the NCG.
by racsan on Dec 5, 2009 11:57 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Oh how I loathe Mack Brown
I’m no fan of Nebraska, but I would have loved to see Mack Brown try to argue that his team STILL deserves to be in the NCG. Try using your timeouts, moron.
I would have loved to see TCU or Cinci give Alabama all they could handle. Instead, I anticipate another snoozer with the end result being SEC gloating for another year.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
by Gorbachav5 on Dec 6, 2009 12:01 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
2015 seems so far away.
President Emperor Warlord Of The Sun!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
by TwistNHook on Dec 6, 2009 12:28 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
that’s because it is?
"We lose to Stanford in many sports, but if you want to make a Cal team quit, bring a weapon."
--Coach Clark
by carp on Dec 6, 2009 7:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You’ve won this round, carp!
President Emperor Warlord Of The Sun!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
by TwistNHook on Dec 6, 2009 8:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
FUCK TEXAS
FUCK THE LONGHORNS. FUCK TEXAS TECH. FUCK FRIDAY NIGHT LIGHTS. FUCK BEEF BRISKET. FUCK GEORGE BUSH (BOTH). FUCK THE COWBOYS. FUCK THE “BACKDOOR OF THE CONFEDERACY.”
OH AND FUCK MACK BROWN.
18 to Cheeseboard
by JrBear on Dec 6, 2009 1:03 AM PST reply actions 3 recs
See also: Texas Tech and the scenes of FNL involving Mike Leach and Nnamdi. (I’m sorry there’s not enough hate in me. I know I’m letting everyone down. FUCK TEXAS, anyway.)
"Let me tell you a story. I was a political prisoner for two years. The instant I was released I ran to McDonald's. I had a Big Mac and a Coke.
It was fantastic."
-Toyama Koichi, US Presidential candidate from Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZqOkeYbB0
by AERose on Dec 6, 2009 1:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Gotta agree – ease up on tasty, tasty beef brisket.
FUCK mack brown though. Right in the ass, with a longhorn.
CGB: Wasting Your Potential, Your Time, & Your Life Since 2006.
by BearStage on Dec 6, 2009 2:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ya, I defiintely agree with your Pro-Mack Brown Fucking policy, but disagree with your Anti-Beef Brisket policy. But man do I need that tax break!
President Emperor Warlord Of The Sun!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
by TwistNHook on Dec 6, 2009 8:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i’m really curious how the heisman voting will turn out.
If Texas ends up in the NC game (likely) AND mccoy SOMEHOW ends up with the heisman (who knows but not unlikely), college football is officially a sham.
by nickle on Dec 6, 2009 5:46 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
My name is ch0ster, and I approve of this thread.
i'm here to clean your pool but i don't have a pool *bowchica bowow*
by ch0ster on Dec 6, 2009 10:56 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Fuck Mack Brown
And the jackass he rode in on!
by CaliforniaBone on Dec 6, 2009 10:59 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
my dad went to texas, so i have a hard time saying this.
plus i wasn’t a cal fan in ’04…but, um, fuck mack brown??
by rjnarayen on Dec 6, 2009 11:55 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
were you not born in 2004?
Gary Darling, go DIAFF.
by The Enchanter on Dec 7, 2009 9:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Texas sucks
The worst part is listening to pundits talking about how Texas is a championship team because they “found a way to win by driving down the field.” How can you say that when the only reason Texas won is because Nebraska gave them great field position with the out of bounds kick off and the horse collar penalty. McCoy sounded like an idiot after the game. “Oh yeah I knew we had 1 or 2 seconds left on the clock.” If he knew that he only had a few seconds left on the clock then why didn’t he spike the ball into the ground instead of lobying the ball in the air, hoping that the ball came down in time? McCoy didn’t look like a great QB he looked like an idiot out there last night who got lucky. I’m guessing last night’s performance will make NFL teams second guess wanting him on their roster.
Oh yeah, F-Texas. Let’s see Alabama embarrass Texas, Mack Brown cry in shame on national television and then UT falls into terrible mediocrity as a football power for the next decade.
by Commicrusher on Dec 6, 2009 1:11 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Are you cereals?
Texas actually has first place votes this week.
by GBB4188 on Dec 6, 2009 1:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not surprising
I think Mack and his brother (?) each have a vote. We saw this bullshit in 2004.
Who's your Draddy?
by Calfan on Dec 6, 2009 6:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Mark Dantonio of Michigan State
Bo Pelini of Nebraska
Tim Brewster of Minnesota
Robb Akey of Idaho
by GBB4188 on Dec 7, 2009 11:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It is all about money
no matter what happens there will be at least two undefeated teams at the end. I have no problem with the computers. I have a problem with the human poll because of the bias.
Sancto Tedford
by monolake on Dec 6, 2009 1:26 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Mack's on ESPN, selling his team to the very end
Careful Mack, we don’t want you to suck too much dick tonight.
Email: bearsnecessities@gmail.com
by Avinash on Dec 6, 2009 5:11 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Well, if he gets an STD its fine.
All aboard the Jahvid Best rickshaw!
by rollonubears on Dec 6, 2009 6:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
[small voice]
Aside from being screwed in 2004, I like Texas.
(Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?)
They’re a big liberal public reasearch school. Austin is way cool. Vince Young beat the Trojans. My UT alum friends could easily have fit in at Cal (I couldn’t see any of my aTm or TTech or Cougar High friends fitting in so easily in Berkeley). I love Kevin Durant.
Mack Brown, on the other hand, can eat a dick.
by LeonPowe on Dec 7, 2009 1:24 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Austin is way cool.
Sadly, gonna have to agree with you here.
7
by Rishi on Dec 7, 2009 6:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Did you ever come back with an Austin trip report?
by LeonPowe on Dec 7, 2009 7:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I would have, but I was too scared of all the replies of “Cool story, Hansel” I would have gotten.
I did manage to accomplish two things that people said I couldn’t, so I was happy.
7
by Rishi on Dec 7, 2009 7:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I was looking forward to it. Besides, Hansel is awesome. He is soooooo hot right now.
Goin' balls deep with Cal since 1972!
by Fire Starkey on Dec 7, 2009 7:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Haha, okay, when I have downtime, will post it in a DBD.
7
by Rishi on Dec 7, 2009 7:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d like to read it. Austin is a great great place.
by LeonPowe on Dec 7, 2009 3:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but they also gave us Chancellor Berdahl.
CGB: Wasting Your Potential, Your Time, & Your Life Since 2006.
by BearStage on Dec 7, 2009 9:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
As a proud Texas grad, I can say this with pride...
Mack Brown can suck a donkey dick.
Texas, on the other hand, deserves to be where it is. Until TCU (and to a lesser extent, Cincinnati) plays a BCS conference level schedule, they have no right to bitch about anything. Sure, you can analyze “best” wins but go through the whole schedule. Your team doesn’t get beat up the same way when you play UNLV, New Mexico and Colorado St as compared to a Kansas, Baylor or aTm. It just doesn’t. So while the best couple of wins might be comparable, the rest of the schedule is not.
And yes, Texas’s schedule sucked balls this year. It was still tougher than TCU or Cincinnati’s.
Goin' balls deep with Cal since 1972!
by Fire Starkey on Dec 7, 2009 7:20 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
True, when you play the likes of powerhouses like Colorado, it’s much tougher than playing a Colorado St. Oh, whats that you say? Colorado lost to Colorado St? And got smoked by Toledo? True, you didn’t mention Colorado, teams like Texas A&M did manage to beat Utah St (by one score), Baylor went 4-8, and Kansas went 5-7…..
Look, I agree that going through a BCS schedule is rough. That’s why Boise St doesn’t get all that much credit despite beating as good of a team as Oregon is. I’m just not sure that what Texas played really qualifies as a BCS schedule, though. Other than a couple of games, their conference was pretty crappy this year (Sagarin has the Big 12 ranked worse than the Big East), and their OOC schedule was basically 4 joke teams they got to rest against. A team like Cinncinati, on the other hand, played in a tough conference, added Oregon St OOC, a decent Fresno St team (not sure if they would have made a bowl in a BCS conference, but they would have been close, definitely comparable to Baylor/Kansas if nothing else), and another BCS conference team (Illinois, they sucked, but still fit your “BCS” criteria). Basically, while Texas had 3 (to be fair I think you can say UCF = Fresno St) off games, Cinncinati had 2, AND played in a tougher conference.
So overall I agree with your point about BCS level schedules, but you still have to look at it on a case by case basis to see if it really matches up to the generalization of “BCS level schedule” or not, and in this case, I think there’s a strong case that Texas’ schedule really doesn’t fit this criteria – or at least, it doesn’t fit it any more than Cinncinati’s schedule does.
by Missing Barry on Dec 7, 2009 11:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If you’re looking at strength of schedule though, using Sagarin, Texas was 20+ spots tougher than Cincinnati and 40 spots better than TCU.
I was using aTm, Baylor and Kansas as examples because they were among the weak Sisters in the Big XII and are a lot more fearsome than the Mountain West teams I mentioned.
The Big East was tough? Really?
Goin' balls deep with Cal since 1972!
by Fire Starkey on Dec 7, 2009 12:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And it is a good point that Sagarin says Texas’ schedule was tougher than Cinncinati’s. Do you know of any other SoS calculations that are published? I’d be curious what other results other people came up with. As for conference strength, I didn’t say the Big East was tough – just said Sagarin had it rated better than the Big 12 as a whole (and provided a link!).
The BCS computers as a whole have Cinncinati over Texas, though they don’t break that down to give us a SoS component.
by Missing Barry on Dec 7, 2009 2:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Making a quick look on the internet, I’ve found several other examples of SoS ranks. CBSSports.com has Texas 30, Cinci 42 TCU 75. Another site has it 31-45-74. Yet another has it 38-69-105!
All have the same order though with varying differences between the teams.
Goin' balls deep with Cal since 1972!
by Fire Starkey on Dec 8, 2009 6:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I ended up finding the BCS formula SoS, Texas still has the advantage, but it’s only by 12 spots if I remember correctly. I don’t trust someone like CBS sports, because I suspect their rankings are based on the biased poll voting – I’d rather look at more complex attempts to do it in an unbiased way.
by Missing Barry on Dec 8, 2009 1:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yeah, by the way, I hate Mack Brown.
by Missing Barry on Dec 7, 2009 11:55 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
The UT faculty bringing their HATE for Mack Brown
University system regents last week decided Brown deserved more money, raising his annual pay from $3 million. The Longhorns will face fellow unbeaten Alabama in the Citi BCS National Championship Game on Jan. 7.
A resolution approved Monday, in an informal vote during a UT Faculty Council meeting, said the $5 million deal was “unseemly and inappropriate.” The group lacked a quorum for an official vote.
by solarise on Dec 16, 2009 10:13 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
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