Cal vs. Stanfurd, Post-112th Big Game Thoughts
(1) Tedford's decision to center the ball on 3rd and 8 was a conservative decision but not a wrong decision. Let's get something out of the way first. Tedford centered the ball. He didn't take a knee. I see a lot of people, and newspaper writers who seem to think the only point of that play was to not stop the clock and make Stanfurd use their last timeout. If those were the only reasons, then Tedford would have just called a run play. But Tedford centered the ball. Centering the ball places the ball directly between the hash marks to give the kicker a straight-line kick. As we all know, the further you move left or right from directly between the hash marks, the smaller the width of the uprights become due to the angle. Thus, centering the ball is more crucial in college football than the NFL because the hash marks in college football are wider than the NFL. And centering the ball is also more crucial the closer you get to the goalline because the angle of the kick is harsher from the 10 yard line right hash (for example) as opposed to the 30 yard line right hash. In short, Tedford centered the ball. He did not just "take a knee."
This decision to center the ball was clearly a conservative decision. I personally would have run the ball left (because Cal was on the right hash). Running the ball left serves two purposes: (1) it keeps the clock running; and (2) it can potentially center the ball. Of course the runningback might take the ball outside one of the hashes rather than keeping the ball between the hashes and thus the ball is no more centered than it was earlier, but the benefit of actually running the ball is that there is a potential to score a touchdown. By centering the ball, Tedford gave up any chance that Cal might score a touchdown. At the time of that 3rd and 8, Cal was up 31-28 with about 2:45 left on the clock in the 4th quarter. A touchdown would have made the game 38-28 (assuming Cal goes for the PAT and makes it). That would have made the game a two-score game and essentially would have iced the game - or at least made it very difficult for Stanfurd to come back. On the other hand, centering the ball and kicking the field goal merely assured that Stanfurd needed a touchdown to win, as opposed to 10 points to tie or 11 points to win (if Cal had scored a touchdown on the 3rd and 8 with a play).
I suppose it's possible that the team could have executed a run play to the left and told Vereen to directly between the hashes as much as possible. Such a play preserves the chances of getting a touchdown (although those chances are probably reduced because Vereen is restricted to his running space), but it also serves the purpose of centering the ball (although the centering probably won't be as accurate as a QB-centering).
I do believe that centering the ball is more important than most critics of Tedford's decision realize. This should not be confused with saying that centering the ball is extremely important. However, critics of Tedford's decision don't even mention the lowered chances of a successful field goal kick from a far hash at extremely close range. To them, it appears, as if there is no difference between kicking a field goal from the 11 yard line far hash, and from the 11 yard line center. This is where they are wrong. Clearly there is a difference and kicking from a far hash is harder. How much of a difference does it make? It's a small one. Small enough that many coaches will just ignore the diminished percentage, and essentially trade a slightly bigger chance at missing the field goal for a chance at scoring a touchdown by running a play on 3rd down instead of centering the ball. Using numbers, it might sound like this: a kicker has a 95% chance at making a field from the 11 yard line center; a kicker has a 90% chance at making a field goal from the 11 yard line far hash; and the team has a 15% chance at scoring a touchdown on a run play from the 11 yard line. Most coaches will gladly take a 5% less chance at a field goal to keep that 15% chance of scoring a touchdown. Obviously Tedford isn't one of those coaches.
Was Tedford's decision wrong? No. I don't think so. There are two ways to win the game in Cal's situation. You go for a touchdown on third down, and if you get it, you ice the game with a 10 point lead. Or you kick the field goal, go up 6 points, and force the offense to score a touchdown. Both ways are valid ways to win. Of course one is more conservative than the other, or one is more aggressive than the other, but neither way is wrong. What is a wrong decision in football? Had Tedford passed the ball on the 3rd down to get a touchdown, I think that would be a wrong decision. You clearly want to run the ball on the 3rd down to make the offense use its last timeout. Even if Tedford passed the ball and Cal scored a touchdown, I would still criticize the decision as being wrong. Anyways, I don't think Tedford's decision is "wrong" as so many of his critics suggest. Conservative? Sure.
If you want to talk about "wrong" decisions, then let's talk about Stanfurd Head Coach Jim Harbaugh's decision to go for it on 4th and 8 on his own 23 yard line with 3 timeouts remaining. That was wrong. That decision pretty much gave Cal a very good chance at scoring a touchdown that would have put Stanfurd into a 10 point hole, and at the very least it gave Cal an extremely good chance at a field goal which would put Stanfurd into a 6 point hole. The 6 point hole now required that Stanfurd get a touchdown to at least tie the game or win it. On the other hand, if Stanfurd had punted the ball on the 4th down and subsequently forced Cal's offense to punt on Cal's next possession, then Stanfurd would only need a field goal to tie the game. If Stanfurd scored a touchdown, they would have gone up 35-31 which then would have required Cal to get a touchdown to win the game.
Clearly, Tedford's decision to center the ball on 3rd down was conservative, but it was nowhere near as "wrong" as Harbaugh's decision to go for it on 4th and 8 from his own 23. That decision was clearly wrong (no quotes).
Addendum:
Coincidentally, Cal's first field goal of the game, was from the 11 yardline right hash - the very same position that Cal was in during the 4th quarter with just under three minutes remaining. Tedford had no problem kicking the field goal from the far hash then. On their face, these situations seem the same, and people might suggest that Tedford's actions were inconsistent. But the situations were slightly different. The first field goal kick was early in the game and Cal had tons of time left in the game to score again even if the field goal was missed. But the second situation was near the end of the game. Cal needed points and knew that they might not get the ball back this game. Thus, the added risk of a far hash kick may be less acceptable, hence why Tedford centered the ball.
(2) Tedford should have gone for it on 4th and less than one yard. Another conservative decision. I personally would have gone for it. It's hard for the defense to prevent the offense from gaining less than a yard. That first down which never occurred could have led to a touchdown drive or perhaps another field goal.
(3) Gregory kept the 3-4 defense on the field on most third downs. When Cal forces opponent offense into 3rd downs, Cal usually brings out its 3-3 defense. However, in Big Game, the first thing I noticed was Gregory keeping the 3-4 defense out on the field for third downs, even third and longs. Why? He clearly wanted greater run support against Stanfurd runningback Tony Gearhart. Cal's pass rushing linebackers, and nickleback are less effective in run support than Cal's bigger 3-4 linebackers. I liked this decision by Gregory. It did concern me though because this decision also allows Stanfurd to put a slot WR against LBs. That is a huge mismatch that Stanfurd tried to exploit, but believe it or not, Cal's linebackers played very well and didn't allow too many easy completions against them.
(4) The wildcat might be better served if it handed the ball off to Sofele on the fly sweep more often. When Cal uses wildcat, the runningback will usually keep the ball. Usually may be an understatement. I think that perhaps 95% of the time, the RB will keep the ball. Stanfurd's defense was clearly not respecting the fly sweep action much during Big Game and was just hitting their interior gaps to stop Vereen. They were pretty successful too, as since Vereen was mostly limited to tough 2-4 yard gains. If Cal handed the ball off about as equally as the RB kept the ball, it would get the defense into more of a read-and-react mode allowing the offensive line to push back the DL with more ease, and freeze outside defenders who are responsible for outside containment of the fly sweep allowing Sofele to gain an advantage. But since Ludwig has the RB keep the ball a very high percentage of the time, the defense is less likely to be read-and-react, and will just play the RB as opposed to the fly sweep.
(5) Cal's offensive line shows up for once! The run blocking clearly wasn't the best we'd ever seen, and perhaps it wasn't even "great" but it was better than we have seen for a couple of months now. I don't know what Marshall did during the week to motivate the guys, but it seemed to work.
(6) Trick plays; the flea flicker. When they work, everyone heaps praise on the coaches. When they don't work, everyone always says something like "that was a wasted play, why'd they get fancy when they didn't need to?" The announcers said pretty much exactly that after Cal tried to run a flea flicker. Cal's intended WR (Boateng?) was open deep too and had beaten the deep defender. That could have been a touchdown if Riley had space to step up into the pocket. But instead, Cal's LG (Summers-Gavin) got beat very badly on the play. The LG lost his individual battle and his defender was the one who pressured Riley to scramble and throw the ball away. Again, it takes 10 men winning their individual position battles and executing for plays to work.
(7) Cal throws in a new blocking scheme! Cal's past power running scheme has utilized a backside pulling guard. There have always been just one pulling blocker. But against Stanfurd we saw the revealing of a new scheme where Cal had two pulling blockers. This occurred out of the 12 personnel set (1 RB, 2 TEs, 2 WRs). Cal would put two TEs to one side of the formation. One TE would be on the LOS in their normal position just outside of the offensive tackle, and the second TE (sometimes called H-back) would be just back and outside of the first TE. The side that the two TEs are lined up on is the strong side. Cal would actually run to the weakside and pull the strongside guard (the backside guard), and the second TE. This play works well theoretically for two reasons: (1) it breaks Cal's tendency to run strongside; and (2) it makes it riskier for the defense to overload on the strong side of the offensive formation in anticipation of a strongside run. Cal also ran this same scheme with 21 personnel (2 backs, 1 TE, 2 WRs) from the Weak-I formation using the fullback on a pull in lieu of the second TE.
(8) The outside zone returns! I'm not really sure why Big Game was the game that it made a reappearance. But in the 4th quarter we saw it run a few times. Perhaps Ludwig saw something schematically that he wanted to exploit, but that doesn't quite explain why we didn't see the outside zone earlier on in the game. Or, perhaps Ludwig felt that the Stanfurd defense was getting tired and would be too slow to stop the outside zone. He did use a new wrinkle in that he used some pre-snap motion to the playside with the fullback. This pre-snap motion gives the fullback a head start on his block, and allows him to get further outside.
(9) Cal covered up the TEs a lot. This was actually something that I did notice slightly during the game but had forgotten about by the time I got home. Commenter Missing Barry asked me about this, and despite his questioning I still didn't recall these plays. But after watching the game again, yes, I did finally remember some of these plays.
Cal rarely covers up their TEs. By "covering" or "covering up" I mean that the TEs become ineligible receivers and thus cannot go downfield for a pass. Cal rarely does this because it removes the TE as a passing threat to the defense. Why does Cal do it then? Well, if covering up the TE removes it as a passing threat to the defense, then the TE becomes a blocking threat to the defense. Because of this, the defense has to respect the run a little more. And that's just what Cal wanted the defense to do. Cal, in formations where the TE was covered up, would mostly playaction pass. In other words, Cal purposely used formations where the TE was covered up to cause the defense to bite harder on the run-fake (because the defense expected run due to a covered TE), to open up the pass.
When Cal covers up the TEs, it's usually out of the I-formation with twin WRs to the side of the TE (the strong side). Because the rules requires that the offense have at least seven men on the line of scrimmage (LOS), one of the WRs has to be on the LOS. 5 OL guys, plus 1 TE, plus 1 WR, equals 7 men on the LOS. However, in these formations that Missing Barry noticed, Cal was covering the TE up with 12 personnel (1 RB, 2 TEs, 2 WRs) rather than the usual 21 personnel (2 backs, 1 TE, 2 WRs) for I-formation.
(10) Cal's punt which was blocked was due to a player not winning his individual battle. I know we all love to hat ("hate" for all you CGBers, or non-CGBers who are unfamiliar with our slang) on Alamar but I'm not sure we can blame that blocked punt on him. Cal's long snapper, Rios, missed his block pretty bad and thus his defender got into the backfield for the block. I know lots of people might be thinking, "well, It's Alamar's job to prepare his players so if they mess up then its the coach's fault." My response is that the players play the game and not the coaches. At some point, you have to stop blindly blaming the coaches and you have to start looking at the individual players. Does this mean I don't think Alamar is on the proverbial hot seat? No. He definitely is. Not for this blocked punt, but for many years of sub-par kick return and especially kickoff coverage.
My point here is that there isn't a lot or any blame to be placed on Alamar for this blown play. It wasn't a scheme issue or confusion between players on who to block. All the Cal blockers knew who to block, it was just a matter of the defender beating the long snapper. Rios just got beat bad. He knew it too. Despite him recovering the blocked punt, after the play he had his head down and slowly walked off the field. He knew he was responsible for that block.
(11) The 112th Big Game was perhaps Riley's most clutch game. I don't know if I would say it was his best game. That was probably the Maryland game earlier this year where Riley finished with a 65.4% completion rate, four touchdowns, and zero interceptions. But Riley sure was clutch towards the second half of the game. He got yardage when nobody was open, and he threw some great balls too.
I sort of hate using that whole cliche "maturity" line, but after the Arizona State game and this game, I do feel like Riley's matured. Matured not in the sense that he's been messing around and now he's finally decided to get his head in the game, but matured in that he's seasoned. He's seen it all. He's been through lots. He's played in a variety of situations to the point where it's nothing new and he's more familiar with things. He's probably less rattled about the situations than before. And I hate making these kind of statements based off of snippets of TV coverage, but he did just seem more calm, poised, and "in the zone" than ever before.
In the podcast this week, some of my fellow Marshawnthusaists expressed the idea that perhaps Riley is now the second best QB of the Tedford era. I whole-heartedly disagree with such a notion (imo, at least two other QBs come to mind before Riley), but I do admit that this game has inched him up the ladder a little bit. If he really turns things around in 2010, perhaps he can take the title of the second best QB of the Tedford era, but that's going to take a lot of work.
(13) Empty set is killer. I love empty (when Cal spreads out the defense with five receivers - and not necessarily wide receivers). I love it for two reasons: (1) Cal seems to be fairly successful out of it; (2) if nobody is open Riley seemingly is always able to run for a few yards of gain. I'm glad that we've seen the use of empty formation increase over the past few weeks. I've been advocating for it quite a bit as since Cal usually runs seam routes, and vertical routes out of this formation and those routes are routes that Riley is pretty good at hitting.
In previous post-game thoughts against Arizona, I've noted how Ludwig had been using 5 WRs in the empty set. Such an observation was significant because Cal used to only use 11 personnel (3 WRs, 1 TE, 1 RB) out of empty. So the switch to 5 WRs out of empty was a surprise. But in Big Game, Cal went back to using 11 personnel. Why this special change? Well, first of all, using 11 personnel helps disguise the empty set. Cal uses 11 personnel in other formations, so when Cal sends 11 personnel into the huddle the defense doesn't really know if Cal is going to line up in empty or another regular formation. But when Cal was using 5 WRs for empty (and Cal only uses 5 WRs for empty and nothing else), the opposing defenses knew they would be seeing an empty formation. Because the defense knows this prior to the defense breaking the huddle, the defense can call a play in response to not only just the personnel group, but the formation too; whereas with using 11 personnel, the defense can only call a defensive play in response to the personnel grouping and not formation.
Side Note: The defense can call a play in response to the offense's formation without seeing the formation post breaking of the huddle based on tendencies. For example, Cal usually passes from shotgun on 3rd and long. Defenses, can extrapolate from this and can make the (generally correct) assumption that if Cal sends 11 personnel on the field, that they are going to see a shotgun formation too.
Cal was also using a little neat trick with the empty sets to get player mis-matches. Specifically, Ludwig would put the TE and RB out as the widest receivers leaving the slot receivers (the WRs) inside and lined up against safeties and linebackers. This is a very simple tactic to get mismatches. I will cover this in-depth in a frame by frame analysis later on.
(14) Luck's ill-fated pass. So Mohamed did a great job reading Luck's eyes and getting the perfect depth. Even if Mohamed wasn't there, I think Cattouse might have INTed the ball anyways. Cattouse was on the intended receiver like white on rice. If Cattouse hadn't intercepted the ball, he definitely would have at least defended the ball. I can see why Luck thought his receiver was open, because his guy definitely was for a moment. But by the time that Luck threw the ball, and by the time the ball would have gotten to the intended receiver, Cattouse had cut in front of the intended receiver to defend the pass. What Luck needed was to put more air under the ball to get it over Mohamed. But more air under the ball might not have helped anyways actually because Cattouse was there to pick anything thrown near him. So I guess what I'm saying is Luck was screwed even if Mohamed wasn't there and even if Luck had put more air under the ball like he had wanted to.
(15) Vereen rushes 42 times! Not much to say here but Vereen was beastly. Sure he's a bit slower than Best, but what he lacks in pure speed, he makes up for in his uncanny ability to gain a few extra yards when surrounded by four defenders and having no business getting any additional yards. He just has that subtle elusiveness to intricately weave through the defenders and trash to get those yards nobody really thinks he'd get. I suppose this is a bit surprising because Cal really hasn't had a RB like him before. Previous RBs just brutally powered their way through the trash and defenders (Lynch, Arrington, Echemandu). Best sort of puts his head down and runs through them but without tons of power. But Vereen just kind of slips through them - like magic.
(16) Cal owns the time of possession 39 minutes to 21 minutes. Stanfurd's defense had to have been tired. Being on the field for that long, having to defend 88 offensive plays!!! Geez. Cal has been averaging 65.2 plays per game prior to Big Game with a 4.87 standard deviation. It's been a while since done statistics, but doesn't that mean something like 95% of the data points will be within two standard deviations greater than and less than the mean? So that means 95% of the time Cal will run anywhere from 55.46 to 74.94 plays per game. Running 88 plays in a game put Cal 4.68 standard deviations above the mean! That's ridic. Straight ridic. Perhaps this is why Ludwig wanted to try some outside zone late in the game; he wanted to see if the Furd defense had the energy in them to defend the outside.
(17) Cool story, Hansel. So my parents' neighbor went to Big Game. He apparently knew some big Furd donor and got to go with him to the game or got his tickets or something. The Furd donor has luxury box suites. The neighbor got to the stadium early before most of the fans got there. In the luxury boxes, there was tons of free food around. My neighbor, taking advantage of the situation, began gorging himself on all the food set out for the rich Furd donors who hadn't arrived yet - everything from fancy burgers to monster sized hotdogs. When the Furd donors arrived, they were quite stereotypically, old and white. Stanfurd, quite intelligently, had a coffee bar in the luxury suite area so the old fogies could stimulate themselves to an awake state to watch the game. Also, quite intelligently, the luxury suite area had a full bar where the rich donors could then drink themselves into a stupor after the loss. Some famous people that were in attendance in the luxury suites: Condoleezza Rice, and Jim Plunkett. Best part of this story: the old Furd donors did not appreciate the loud cheers of the neighbor. Quite literally, when the neighbor would cheer, the old Furd donors would turn around to him and say for him to not cheer so loud. Something about the cheering overloading their hearing aids or something. How rude of the neighbor. Doesn't he know that he's at a football game? You're not supposed to make noise!
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Bonus Thoughts from college football games from the weekend of Friday, November 27th, to Saturday, November 28th.
Texas vs. Texas A&M - Exciting game. Texas A&M got risky and frisky with some blitzes and man coverage. They got burned. Perfect examples of what can happen when you roll the dice. I'm not saying Cal shouldn't be more aggressive (sending more pass rushers) on defense because this is what happens, but this certainly is what can happen. We should all be aware of the risks. Also, if I recall correctly, Texas A&M missed a short field goal from far hash that could have made a difference in the game. Just another reason why perhaps Tedford isn't completely crazy for centering the ball on that 3rd and 8.....
Alabama vs. Auburn - Auburn really showed some 2-minute drill ineptitude at the end of the game. They needed to drive the field in about a minute, and ended up calling about 3 plays in all that time. Their QB was confused. The coaches weren't getting playcalls into the game quickly. It was one ugly hot mess. That is what happens when you don't practice the 2-minute drill and you don't have a system to get playcalls into the game quickly. Thankfully, you'll never really see Cal do the epic failure that Auburn did. First of all, Cal practices its two-minute drill every practice. Every single day, they practice scoring in under two minutes.
Second, and I've talked about this before, but Ludwig has installed a great two-minute drill system. In previous years, the sideline QBs would signal in the playcall to the starting QB. The signals would take a few seconds to signal in, and then the starting QB would spend another 15 seconds telling the play to the players - in actual team language. Meaning, the defense can hear what the offense's playcall is. Sometimes, you can figure out what parts of the play will be based on the terminology (some of the terminology was too closely tied to the words/routes that they were meant to represent). But now, the sideline QB just signals in a number, one through nine. This takes about half a second. The QB will then yell out the number to the offense. All the offense players have those 9 plays memorized. The players need only to merely line up and run their play. This takes less time than the previous system. The additional benefit of the new system is that the actual playcall terminology isn't being yelled out by the QB so the defense can't hear it, thus further protecting the playcall.
To Center the Ball? Or to Not Center the Ball?
Texas vs. Texas A&M - aTm doesn't center the ball and misses a short field goal that would have made a difference in the game.
Arkansas vs. LSU - Arkansas doesn't center the ball and misses a short game-tying overtime field goal.
Arizona vs. Arizona State - Stoops centers the ball for a game winning field goal and the kick is good.
It's like the football gods are talking to us and telling us to center the football. This weekend might be the undeniable proof that so many center-the-ball haters need to finally appreciate Tedford's decision.
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121 comments
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Comments
on the fly sweep, I noticed the one time we did go to Sofele, he went for a first down (12 yards?)
by LeonPowe on Nov 30, 2009 4:04 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I think HydroTech was talking about handing the ball off to Sofele out of the Wildbear. I think we may have done that once this year, if at all.
by Cali49a on Nov 30, 2009 8:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty sure we did it once, and that it was very successful. I’ve been waiting impatiently for them to hand it off again – even if it went nowhere – just to get them to respect it.
by tmoran3020 on Nov 30, 2009 10:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Thinking the same thing. Are there obvious reasons we wouldn’t just let him run with it a few times?
by CaliforniaCMB on Nov 30, 2009 3:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Riley in motion
What about bring Riley in motion to Vareen? I know he’s no threat to running, but it turns the variable into a possible passing situation. I think the downside is that Riley doesn’t have as much time to assess the defense (since he has to focus on running to the ball), but it might freeze the defense a little. Thoughts?
by cal85 on Nov 30, 2009 11:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting thought and would be cool to see, but once Riley lines up as an eligible receiver and goes in motion, the defense has the green light to hit him. Not worth the risk in my opinion.
by Cali49a on Nov 30, 2009 11:24 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Technically, whenever Riley lines up as a WR, a defender can go after him, especially if the QB needs to block. I’m not 100% sure on this, but I don’t think wildbear plays are drawn up to flow to the side the QB is on. Perhaps the fake fly sweep has gone Riley’s way before, but I’m not sure. Something to watch for.
It’s a bit different if a defender is going after the QB who lines up wide and essentially not a part of a play at all than a QB going in motion and being a part of the deception of a play. The latter would be frowned upon more.
by Cali49a on Nov 30, 2009 11:39 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
flea flicker
Notre Dame ran a nice play against Standford on the w/e that ended up with the quarterback throwing a long touchdown to a wide open receiver. Seems like it could be a play that would work for Cal given the tendency of Vereen to run, if the scheme could sell it to the defense.
jh
by Jake88 on Nov 30, 2009 11:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think I would rather have the WR hitting Riley rather than a huge DL guy getting a hit in.
by CaliforniaCMB on Nov 30, 2009 3:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why would the WR hit Riley? Pissed about not getting the ball? Riley stole his chick?
by LeonPowe on Nov 30, 2009 3:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
LoL
Wrong side of the ball, I mean the CB or whomever they have him covered with.
by CaliforniaCMB on Nov 30, 2009 3:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
comments, comments
But Vereen just kind of slips through them – like magic.
Bah. It has to be technical ability, or that combined with an advantageous body shape or size (I’m no expert, because clearly I wanted another real play on the third down of Cal’s penultimate possession, but magic?). Maybe the angle at which he runs or hits the line makes it hard for the defenders to tackle him.
You want magic/miracles? Consider the linebacker pass defense instead.
The complaint about Alamar was not just that the punt was blocked, it was that the previous punt had come damn close to being blocked and it appeared that jack diddly had been done about this obvious threat between punt #1 and punt #2. Now, if the punt blocking errors were two completely unrelated incidents, then perhaps Alamar gets a pass….
Agree on using the fly sweep more. I’d also like to see Best do that if he comes back in addition to Sofele.
Question: did the outside zone used possibly due to Stanfurd getting tired contribute to the sudden effectiveness of their defense after they had been pushed around for four consecutive long TD drives?
by ososdeoro on Nov 30, 2009 6:49 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
It has to be technical ability
I think so. I’ve said this before in other threads – Vereen’s running style reminds me of a less refined Frank Gore. The steps they take through the trash, the patience they show in letting holes open, are just very similar. Neither are necessarily the fastest or most explosive RB (though don’t get me wrong, they aren’t plodders by any means and have pretty good quickness), but it’s just the way they’re efficient with their steps and get low in the hole and take things as they open up that I don’t see out of many other backs. Tomlinson is another guy that comes to mind when I think of this kind of efficient running style.
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 8:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Still plenty of room left to criticize Alamar
Though I take your point about losing an individual battle to heart. That stuff happens and cannot be put all on the coaches shoulders – but adjustments can be made. And preparation can be improved.
Stand the whole game, stay to the end, and start yelling while they're still in the huddle. GO BEARS
by JerrottWillard45 on Nov 30, 2009 1:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
as I recall, the outside zone plays did not gain a lot. We only ran outside zone two or three times so I don’t think they were fully responsible for the Furd’s defense seemingly sudden effectiveness.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
by HydroTech on Nov 30, 2009 3:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ironic that the Furd had its best defensive series at the tail end of the game after they had been beaten on for 75-80 plays.
"Let me tell you a story. I was a political prisoner for two years. The instant I was released I ran to McDonald's. I had a Big Mac and a Coke.
It was fantastic."
-Toyama Koichi, US Presidential candidate from Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZqOkeYbB0
by AERose on Nov 30, 2009 9:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Isn’t the decision to hand it off to Sofele up to Vereen in the wildbear? You don’t want him to force it and try to give it too much but at the same time I wonder whether Vereen isbeing a tad selfish back there or untrusting of Sofele. Perhaps if it is Best he would be more willing. Though in those cases Best isone he’ll of a decoy.
It'll be just you, me, and Peter Nincompoop.
by BeastMode on Nov 30, 2009 6:57 AM PST via mobile reply actions 0 recs
I think part of the reason why Vereen doesn’t hand off is that he’s not comfortable handing off, especially not to a dude running full speed at a perpendicular angle to him. This is challenging enough for a QB who’s been doing it since 9th grade, and can be a real tough motion to get the hang of for an RB. That said, Sofele really should get it once every 4 or 5 wild bear snaps just to keep the defense honest. Also, from a fan’s perspective, the fly sweep is one of the more exciting run plays to watch
by calbeers05753 on Nov 30, 2009 8:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you hit the nail on the head. I mentioned this to a buddy a few games back, but it seems to me that Cal is implementing more plays out of the wildbear as the season goes on. A simple run play for us out of the I formation looks smooth when dialed up. But when it comes to the wildbear, things don’t always look so smooth. There was one wildbear play during the Big Game that I believe was going to be a pass but the intended receiver didn’t sell run well enough but perhaps the Furd just defended it really well.
by Cali49a on Nov 30, 2009 9:07 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Vareen's choice
If it is up the rb, I can understand why he doesn’t hand off. He’s going to call his number any time he thinks he can get decent yardage, which should be every time he touches the ball!
by cal85 on Nov 30, 2009 11:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah but he has the keep the defense on their toes, his chances at decent yardage each time will be more difficult if the defense knows what to expect.
by CaliforniaCMB on Nov 30, 2009 3:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh definitely. My point is that, given the option, the rb will choose to keep rather than hand off.
by cal85 on Nov 30, 2009 4:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I probably would call my own number as well, ha!
by CaliforniaCMB on Nov 30, 2009 5:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Whether the handoff is Vereen's decision or not.
This is something I’ve been contemplating quite a bit, and I do not believe it is Vereen’s decision. I think it is all predetermined beforehand. I believe this based on the blocking scheme. There are instances where the blocking used would not be conducive to a fly sweep handoff and thus it suggests that the play was always meant for Vereen to take the ball.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
by HydroTech on Nov 30, 2009 3:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, if the 2-minute drill now uses a 1-9 playcallinf system, while it hides the play somewhat, they can also hear the number too right? I assume if they ran the play again they would have to check or audible.
It'll be just you, me, and Peter Nincompoop.
by BeastMode on Nov 30, 2009 7:00 AM PST via mobile reply actions 0 recs
Correct. It is possible that if the offense called the same play twice, then the defense would know what the play would be.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
by HydroTech on Nov 30, 2009 3:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
In the podcast this week, some of my fellow Marshawnthusaists expressed the idea that perhaps Riley is now the second best QB of the Tedford era. I whole-heartedly disagree with such a notion (imo, at least two other QBs come to mind before Riley),
Which ones? Kyle Boller and 2006 Longshore?
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by Rishi on Nov 30, 2009 7:04 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Ugh, screw me. I thought he meant two other QBs come to mind before Riley for “second best QB of the Tedford era”
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by Rishi on Nov 30, 2009 7:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Great read as usual. The Sofele / fly sweep bothers me a little also — it’d be interesting to hear Tedford or Ludwig discuss the downsides of this.
by sec119 on Nov 30, 2009 7:26 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Probably the same reason they don’t trust Deboskie to run between the tackles more…they haven’t seen these guys enough in gametime, it’s their first year, it’s late in the season and they could make rookie mistakes (fumbles, bad running vision, etc.).
Email: bearsnecessities@gmail.com
by Avinash on Nov 30, 2009 7:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree on this point. I wonder if they’ll run Isi against Washington to give him some in-game reps or if they’ll try to surprise whomever they play in their bowl game… or if they’ll just continue to use him as a decoy no one respects.
by dchu on Nov 30, 2009 7:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m on the fence about the centering the ball.
For:
- Vereen likely burned out after 42 carries.
- DeBo unproven (possible fumble?).
- No real threat of pass (not with Riley’s red zone struggles and the situation).
- Inconsistent kicking.
- Defense had played well for most of the game.
- Effectively takes Gerhart on the ground out of the game.
Against:
- Best case scenario still leaves a better possibility of Stanford winning.
- Terrible kicking coverage meant most likely Stanford would have a short field.
If we had even average special teams, I would say center it. But the fact that we don’t have even REMOTELY competent kick coverage would have given me pause.
In any cause, I agree that it’s not nearly as “wrong” a decision as people are making it out to be. Aggressively going for the TD isn’t always the right decision. The end of ’furd/ND game this past Saturday is an excellent example: all tied up with less than a minute left, Harbaugh ran Toby Gerhart inside the 10 for the end zone. ND let him score. Harbaugh could have ran out the time and effectively kicked an extra point for the win while the clock expired. He could have told Gerhart to pull an MJD and kneel at the 1 yard line. Instead, he gave Notre Dame a chance to tie the game against a secondary that had gotten burned all night.
by dchu on Nov 30, 2009 7:34 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
(Let’s see if this gets rid of the Italics.)
I suppose this is a bit surprising because Cal really hasn’t had a RB like him before. Previous RBs just brutally powered their way through the trash and defenders (Lynch, Arrington, Echemandu). Best sort of puts his head down and runs through them but without tons of power. But Vereen just kind of slips through them – like magic.
What about Forsett? He’d be the closest parallel to Vereen in recent years, I think.
Still disagree with centering the ball; I’d fully agree with those coaches who’d say the increased possibility of making the FG isn’t worth giving up your chance at a TD.
by sycasey on Nov 30, 2009 8:26 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Was Forsett as “strong” as Vereen?
by HolmoePhobe on Nov 30, 2009 3:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m inclined to say, with no evidence whatsoever, that Forsett was/is stronger.
by LeonPowe on Nov 30, 2009 3:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Forsett appeared stronger, but maybe it’s because he was shorter? All the pictures I see, Forsett just has built up top.
by CaliforniaCMB on Nov 30, 2009 3:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
In depth and insightful stuff
I enjoy reading your post game thoughts especially when you really touch upon the X and Os like in points 7, 9, and 13.
Keep it up!
by Cali49a on Nov 30, 2009 9:29 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Thanks.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
by HydroTech on Nov 30, 2009 3:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Friggin italics
We all know who is responsible for this.
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by Rishi on Nov 30, 2009 9:29 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Nestor?
"We lose to Stanford in many sports, but if you want to make a Cal team quit, bring a weapon."
--Coach Clark
by carp on Nov 30, 2009 9:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent post Hydro.
I think you should consider adding to #1 that Vince D’Amato (true freshman) has been injured a good part of this year and was likely kicking the biggest FG of his life in a chilly night game on real grass (slippery?). I bet Tedford kept this in mind when he decided to center it.
Alternatively, I would have liked to see Vereen carry it a 43rd time through the LT and LG. This way he would have had a chance at a TD and, if tackled, the ball would still be centered (more or less) and Stanfurd would have burned their last timeout. I think what bothered Cal fans more than centering the ball was the “being afraid to lose” mentality that has come up so frequently. These fans, imo, are also quick to criticize the playcalling when it’s aggressive (like when Vereen passed it out of the WildGrizzly vs ASU).
Also, I’d like to use this space to officially praise Anthony Miller. I love how he’s been playing this year. I see his successes out of the passing game, but how does he do in the run game? I’m usually watching the ball carrier.
And I would love to see an Owen Marecic-type playing for the Bears next year at FB. Ibid Golden Tate.
"We lose to Stanford in many sports, but if you want to make a Cal team quit, bring a weapon."
--Coach Clark
by carp on Nov 30, 2009 9:38 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
+1 re Miller
He’s been good and dependable all season, and he had a good Big Game just a few short weeks after being scoped. GIVE ALAMAAAAAARRR A RAISE!
Costs assessed against Twist
by CALumbus Bear on Nov 30, 2009 9:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
he does seem to do a good job with TE’s.
"We lose to Stanford in many sports, but if you want to make a Cal team quit, bring a weapon."
--Coach Clark
by carp on Nov 30, 2009 10:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, he was also responsible for Beegun. Lest we ever forget.
Costs assessed against Twist
by CALumbus Bear on Nov 30, 2009 10:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I also give props for TE play this season.
They were huge difference makers in multiple games – and sometimes it was the 3rd/4th string guy (coming out of Spring practice).
Stand the whole game, stay to the end, and start yelling while they're still in the huddle. GO BEARS
by JerrottWillard45 on Nov 30, 2009 1:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
oh, blah blah blah
I thought the pass in the ASU game was fine, and I thought we should have tried a pass play on 3rd down with Riley taking the knee if it wasn’t wide open.
by ososdeoro on Nov 30, 2009 11:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I wish Cal would have run Vereen up the middle on third and half a yard from midfield w/ 9 minutes left, up 10, instead of running that bootleg. Then we run said bootleg on first down at the 11.
Centering the ball? I would have rather seen a run off left tackle, but I think the bootleg call was worse.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
by CBKWit on Nov 30, 2009 10:16 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
(2) Tedford should have gone for it on 4th and less than one yard.
This is the only thing I disagree with.
There were two 4th down decisions that Tedford made in his head on this drive. Both times we were leading by two possessions with about 10mins left:
First: 4th and inches on our own 37 @ 11:10 in the 4th (would’ve punted)
Second: 4th and inches on our own 37 @ 9:00 in the 4th (did punt)
Given the situation and the circumstances, it was absolutely the right decision. Riley was injured and if you believe he should’ve gone for it on 4th/inches on our own 47, you probably would want Tedford to go for it on 4th/inches on our own 37. How big a diff is there between these two situations? I wanted him to punt in both situations and that’s prob what would’ve happened and did happen.
Punting was the right call with Riley injured
(1) We were on our own 47, we were not in their territory yet. You’re up by two possessions with 9min left, the book says you punt. (2) The prior play was 3rd and 1foot and we called a QB option and Riley still was not able to pick it up. The next play would’ve been a 4th and inches, but Riley was now injured. He was limping and barely got off the field. After running a QB option to the outside, we would probably want a QB keeper up the middle for the 4th… for that we need a healthy Riley and he was limping badly. If we ran a Wildcat with Vereen on 4th and 1, they would probably know he was going to keep and would’ve stacked the box. Had anything gone wrong, we would be giving them superb field position in a two possession game with 9min left… exactly what Harbaugh would want.
If it was such a bad idea, why not go for it five plays earlier?
(3) In addition, about five plays earlier on the same drive, we had a 3rd and inches on our own 37 to convert. We called a QB sneak up the middle and it looked like Riley didn’t get it. The refs called for a measurement. This occurs on 11:10 in the 4th quarter. Let me ask you, would you want Tedford to go for it if he doesn’t get it? If you believe we should’ve gone for it on 4th and inches on our own 47, why not 4th and inches on our own 37? It’s just 10 yards on the same drive with similar circumstances. Luckily the measurement show we barely got it by a hair.
I would recommend everyone re-watch that entire drive from start to finish to see the context and you’ll understand that Tedford’s decision was an easy one.
by danzig on Nov 30, 2009 10:41 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
the book says you punt.
Well, the book is wrong. Pretty much any 4th and short (less than a yard) situation calls for the team to go for it if they’re looking to increase their chances of winning…
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 11:58 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Barry's right - the book is wrong.
You go for it both times. I say this very confidently. You have many different ways to get those inches, and your probability of a good outcome is much higher.
One of the dominating things for us this game was keeping the ball. In our hands. Out of Toby’s. No getting into the rhythm for dangerous but inconsistent freshman Luck.
Punting gives them the ball 100% of the time (ok 99% b/c of fumbles/muffs, though blocks are more common).
The ‘always punt on 4th’ crowd totally undervalues possession in favor of field position. The stats say you’re wrong. Even when your strength is your D, your kicker is strong, and theirs is weak, the stats STILL say you’re wrong. But I’d give you more leeway if you argued for punting with those 3 things true. Those 3 were not all true.
So I will, respectfully, attempt to directly contradict you.
Stand the whole game, stay to the end, and start yelling while they're still in the huddle. GO BEARS
by JerrottWillard45 on Nov 30, 2009 12:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty much any 4th and short (less than a yard) situation calls for the team to go for it if they’re looking to increase their chances of winning…
Where can I find well-reasoned analysis of this? I’m willing to concede that most coaches are overly concerned with field position and overly risk averse, and that they therefore punt more frequently than they should. But given the particular game situation, I was very happy with the decision to punt and disappointed more with the defense’s inability to stop the ’Furd offense on the ensuing series.
Bear in mind that, much like investing, the choice that offers the highest expected return, on average, is not always the best choice. Every scenario involves a balancing of risk and reward, and estimation of both risk and reward hinge on both the relative likelihood and the severity of different outcomes. Add to this the fact that coaches aren’t rolling dice but instead are managing groups of human beings who are extremely prone to collective, snowballing feelings of victory and defeat (i.e., momentum shifts). I’m not saying the question of going for it on fourth down is beyond statistical analysis, but applying analysis of aggregated patterns is not always straightforwardly applicable to particular game situations.
I’m still curious, though, to see what numbers people have unearthed.
Go Bears!
by California Pete on Nov 30, 2009 12:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You can start here:
http://www.advancednflstats.com/2009/09/4th-down-study-part-1.html
Scroll down past the graph.
by sycasey on Nov 30, 2009 12:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting. But I remain skeptical because it’s:
a. based on the NFL;
b. based only on 1st and 3rd quarter data;
and, most importantly,
c. based solely on expected return which is in no way weighted or otherwise adjusted for risk.
Of course going for it carries a higher “expected points” value than kicking the ball much or most of the time. But that’s not enough to make it a good decision. The question is this: is the added expected return worth the added risk? This is a question that is inherently ambiguous, for we all have different appetites for risk, appetites that vary given the specific situation.
Go Bears!
by California Pete on Nov 30, 2009 1:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m just not seeing a role for risk, other than to save a decisionmakers job (which isn’t necessarily in line with the teams best interests). There’s lots of research on the topic, obviously it’s generic and percentages need to be adjusted for teams, but on 4th and short, the discrepency is so large that going for it is basically always the right answer. Here’s another bit of research on the topic:
http://elsa.berkeley.edu/users/dromer/papers/nber9024.pdf
Adjusting it for college football I would think offenses are even more likely to get it than in the NFL, and punting even riskier in terms of blocks/returns for TD’s, so I think that would support the point even more, but I’m just guessing on this one. What I do know is while the research might differ at times on where the exact breakeven point is, it’s overwhelmingly in favor of going for it on 4th and short. The change in overall win probability really is that big.
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 2:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for this.
Really, folks, we’re not talking out of our butts on this one. Just because a lot of coaches don’t go for it, and haven’t for a long time, doesn’t mean they’re not wrong.
Stand the whole game, stay to the end, and start yelling while they're still in the huddle. GO BEARS
by JerrottWillard45 on Nov 30, 2009 3:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I was actually thinking about this risk/reward thing, in the exact framework you used (comparing it to investing), and I determined why we weigh risk/reward in one and not the other. It’s all about utility curves – as a person, when investing, maximizing your wealth isn’t the objective, it’s maximizing your utility. Wealth tends to have diminishing returns – that is, the first million is more rewarding than the second, and so on, and the worst case scenario (that you lose everything) is generally much worse than simply adding 0*probability of losing everything into an expected value equation.
Winning a sports game is not like this. There are only two outcomes – winning and losing, and you are not faced with a scenario that faces diminishing returns or huge losses from losing everything. If your decision costs you the game (think Belicheck, Bill), it’s just one loss to the loss column. There’s no risk to be weighed into this, the team should want to maximize their chances of winning (in other words, maximize their expected value). That said, we do often see the decisionmakers faced with a similar dilemna to investors – coaches often get more blame for a “mistake” than credit for a good call, it may be possible that owners see some sort of diminishing returns/terrible losing everything outcome in terms of revenues and what not.
Also, I think “momentum” in general is overrated. For instance, the research seems to suggest that there’s no predictive value in hot streaks in shooting a basketball or hitting a baseball, two things I would say are commonly thought of as “momentum”. They’re simply a product of random variation. I do believe this in general applies to most things we call “momentum” in sports – that is, they’re almost entirely caused by random variation but human nature is to pick out patterns in sequences of events, and we feel the need to come up with some sort of explanation for them, hence, momentum…
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 1:45 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
That said, we do often see the decisionmakers faced with a similar dilemna to investors
I kind of forgot to make my point here – that is, I see similar situations for decisionmakers, but the point is that presents a conflict of interest where the proper decision for the person in charge is not the proper decision for the team, which should look to maximize their expected value (maximize their winning%).
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 1:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The diminishing utility of greater wealth goes in long way in explaining why investors are averse to risk and thus willing to pay a premium to avoid risk. But I don’t buy the argument that because football is a simple win-loss scenario that the rational approach is thus risk neutral.
Coaches aren’t thinking, if I had this call to make a thousand times, on average the highest return would be to go for it. Instead, they’re thinking, quite rationally, about that particular moment. That single instance. For the sake of argument, let’s assume a scenario in which going for it on fourth down carries an expected points return of +2, while punting carries an expected points return of -1. Going for it would seem to be the better choice. But what if you’re protecting a 3-point lead in the 4th quarter, and going for it carries a 40% chance of the other team scoring a field goal (or better) on the ensuing possession, while punting carries only a 30% chance of the same? Now which is the better strategy? Over the long run, going for it is expected to yield your side more net points than would punting, but going for it also carries a higher probability of failure in that particular instance.
Professor Romer’s original paper was all about arguing that economic decision makers are not perfectly “rational” in a theoretical sense, that they’re not pure profit maximizers from an organizational point of view. I find it kind of odd, then, that his paper has been used to suggest that such a thing as unambiguous, perfectly rational football coaching that maximizes profits expected points is a theoretical possibility.
Go Bears!
by California Pete on Nov 30, 2009 2:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well the whole point is the overall win probability is higher in going for it, not just the number of expected points you score. Of course you have to weigh what happens if you don’t make it, but the people that research this stuff are aware of this. I’d recommend reading up on the various NFL stats blogs about the whole Belicheck call – that was 4th and 2 and they’re basically all in agreement that, at worst, it was an even chance of winning both ways, and at best it favored NE. I guess my point is their process is exactly what you’re describing, and exactly the thought process a coach should go through if he’s interested in maximizing a teams winning percentage (which he should be).
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 2:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll need to set aside time to read Romer’s paper more carefully in order to follow the assumptions made by his model, but the advancednflstats.com posts follow a very simplistic expected-points methodology. My point is simply that the “smart” or “rational” or “correct” strategic move is not always the one that yields the highest average return in terms of net expected points. That may be the game-winning strategy in most scenarios, but late in the fourth quarter, the riskiness of setting up your opponent in good field position is enhanced. In other words, the same strategy that offers the highest average return may also be the same strategy that offers the highest chance of a game-losing bad outcome.
This is, after all, why coaches take a knee at the end of the game when leading—unless, of course, they’re named Pete Carroll. They might have the ball, first and ten on the opponent’s 40 yard line, where the expected points are, say, +2.5, if they proceed to run their typical plays. But they take a knee not because they want to appear “classy” but because they want to minimize the risk of turning the ball over and giving their opposition another possession. In this case, a risk-free strategy with an expected-points value of zero (but a probability of victory of 100%) is preferable to a risky strategy that offers a positive expected return.
More sophisticated models might very well take into account these game-situation-dependent tolerances for risk and still return the conclusion that coaches should go for it much more often on fourth down than they do now. I don’t dispute that at all. I just caution against jumping from a reasonable statement that coaches generally should be more aggressive on fourth down to unambiguous conclusions that Coach X made a mistake when he decided to kick on a particular fourth down.
Go Bears!
by California Pete on Nov 30, 2009 4:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, if that’s what you’re going for, I get what you’re saying now. There are more knowledgeable people out there than me about this stuff, I’ll admit that, but my impression is that they’re trying to maximize winning percentage as opposed to net points (may not be the case in Romer’s paper, that’s just one of the things I’ve read on the issue, I thought the Belicheck things I read were all concerned with winning %). If you’re reading it otherwise, I could be wrong and you could have a valid point, but those are definitely variables that need to be accounted for, and I believe they’re factored into at least some of the discussions.
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 4:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The stats back me up
The expected points return is a good stat instead of your ‘40% chance of the other team scoring a field goal or better’. You’re misinterpreting the stats.
Because if you go for it and make it, you have a chance at scoring points for your team, and you’re not accounting for that when you evaluate only the odds of the opposing team scoring when you go for it and fail vs. when you punt.
If you go for it you get and make it you may also get points that could make you take the lead or increase the lead. And you win the game by having more points, not by the other team not getting points. The 2nd part is useful but insufficient. The first part is both.
The stats tell us that going for it, on average results in a NET point differential of 3 points = a field goal. It’s like saying “odds are, if I don’t go for it, I’m giving up 3 points.” That’s what the stats tell you. So if you have a 3-point lead going into the 4th, it’s like giving them a free field goal. Does that help you? No. And the onside kick might be recovered, too.
There is almost no case where giving up points helps you win. That’s what the stats tell you. That’s why they use that stat. It’s because the team with the most points wins the game 100% of the time, so it’s the best stat.
The only time you should take an action that has a negative expected return on points is when you have a large enough lead the game clock will run out during that play and despite the up to 8 points you’re giving up you’ll still win.
The return curve is a cliff edge in football, but the coaches play like it’s a smooth curve, and they’re willing to win a bit less because they think it looks bad when they take actions to win that have been labelled as risky. Or, they simply don’t know the odds.
It’s actually risk mitigation to go for it on 4th, that’s what the stats tell you.
Now, having said all that, of course each situation should be handled uniquely – and maybe you know something about the kickers, the O, or the D that strongly changes things. But in general, it’s not true, and the wrong call is being made thousands of times a year on fields across the country.
Knowing what I knew about the situation in the Big Game, the decisions were actually pretty easy – and they were made wrong. Despite this, we won! GO BEARS!
Stand the whole game, stay to the end, and start yelling while they're still in the huddle. GO BEARS
by JerrottWillard45 on Nov 30, 2009 2:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The old man view
1. sorry to respond without reading all the footnotes (i.e., go ahead and skip this post), am dandling baby on knee as mother is out of town
2. thanks for finance analogy. expected return is great, says the man all-in on equities in his sorry retirement portfolio, but let"s not forget variation. just like we move to bonds as teeth get long and hearing fades, so coaches may pull back on flea flickers and fourth down plays at the end of the game. sure, making it would be great, but failure could be disaster. I suppose that is what makes the long pass devestating as the clock runs down (see Carol, Pete).
3. are there ant successful examples of expected return maximizers? or is this another case of Long Term Capital Management?
4. I would have gone for it, based on odds and on my perception of the team at the time. but I am covered in baby cheese (maybe explains a lot about my life and career.)
jh
by Jake88 on Nov 30, 2009 4:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Because if you go for it and make it, you have a chance at scoring points for your team, and you’re not accounting for that when you evaluate only the odds of the opposing team scoring when you go for it and fail vs. when you punt.
My point only is that there are game situations where the only thing that matters is whether or not the other team scores, thus requiring a different metric besides average expected points in choosing the strategy most likely to yield victory.
Go Bears!
by California Pete on Nov 30, 2009 4:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I get you.
And the calculators can take this into account. Ones that have a time left in the game variable do this.
In some ways this means my analysis was oversimplified about the very last two drives, but most of it is correct, because once you get past the point of being able to ‘kneel out’ to 00:00, you want to go to expected points. If they have enough time for a ‘normal’ drive, that’s a fine metric.
If we could have knelt on their 9 yard line until there were only 20 seconds or less of game time (probably 3 or less possible plays), and no timeouts, that would probably have been even more secure than going for it and scoring a TD! Depends…
I am fine with how we knelt at the VERY end of the game. That guaranteed success 100%.
But the value of the 3pt. margin vs. the 6pt. margin was very weak, the increased odds of the straight FG vs. the angled field goal are very weak, and the value of the possible TD was very high, and the decreased difficulty on ’Furd starting at their 40 instead of their 5 was very high.
It all adds up.
The failure to even run it up the middle on 3rd with both Shane’s hands covering the ball is nigh inexcusable – it’s a failure to try to gain upside because of outrageously high fear of rare bad events.
For example, let’s say the FG attempt was blocked and run back for a TD? Unlikely, but possible. Why was Tedford not more afraid of that outcome? It’s not rational.
How often have you seen a run at the 9-yard line up the middle go for a TD? I’ve seen it a few times. Fairly unlikely but it happens – sometimes a player loses their individual battle badly :-)
How often have you seen a FG at the 9-yard line blocked? Pretty rare, but I’ve seen it happen. Bad snap anyone? See the AZ-OU game???
To evaluate these things, you should look at the stats, and then add a factor based on your knowledge of player ability (i.e., average QB/WR pair completes on 3rd and 7 X% of the time; my QB/WR combo is maybe 10% worse than average today, I think in my gut, so let’s think it’s about X-10% right now – I compare that with my other options).
But you should start with the stats as your base mentality of what’s likely, otherwise you’re pretending you know more than you do or have premonitions or some other magical thinking.
Stand the whole game, stay to the end, and start yelling while they're still in the huddle. GO BEARS
by JerrottWillard45 on Nov 30, 2009 5:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The funny thing is this actually started with you and I agreeing that the decision to center the ball on third down was a poor one. :-)
Go Bears!
by California Pete on Nov 30, 2009 5:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We agree!
I like what you have to say!
Stand the whole game, stay to the end, and start yelling while they're still in the huddle. GO BEARS
by JerrottWillard45 on Nov 30, 2009 6:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Whoa
I didn’t think there would be this much controversy over this one decision. This discussion is getting too long for me to read. I"m assuming you guys are getting into statistics and expected return and such. In that case, I think you guys just made Tedford’s case.
4th and inches, on our own 47, Riley was injured and…. we were 1 for 6 on 4th down conversions at the time (for the season). 1 for 6. That’s like 17%. This also makes us the 4th worst team in the country when trying to convert 4th downs.
I think this is a stat that Tedford would have memorized. I’m not sure Tedford, knowing the statistics of the situation, would be inclined to throw out the data and just say, “screw it, I’m going for it!”
by danzig on Dec 1, 2009 5:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Out of curiosity, when were those 4th down decisions? I remember the majority of them being 4th and long when we were behind big-time and the only one we got was the 4th and short against Minnesota.
Email: bearsnecessities@gmail.com
by Avinash on Dec 1, 2009 7:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, if you’re talking to us statistically inclined folks, we’re just going to look at that number 6 and throw it out knowing you can’t make an informed decision based on a sample size of 6…
by Missing Barry on Dec 1, 2009 7:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, and then we'll start talking about reversion to the mean
If a 60% completion rate passer has a streak going 1-6 you don’t think he can hit a short pass the next time you ask him? You really want to argue we couldn’t get inches the way Vereen was making 2 yards out of nothing over and over that night? Your alternative is a turnover. A punt is a turnover.
You are arguing stats with a stats guy.
Let me state it again – the odds were in favor of going for it. I am taking into account our previous performance when I say that. I spent time thinking about it before I said it.
I bet Tedford has some stats at hand in his fine brain at all times, but is not naive enough to think the 1-6 4th down conversion you mention was the definitive analysis. He has a POLICY of not going for it under most down and distance situations. He’s a conservative coach in this respect, and I personally believe he’s choosing to ignore the stats (which are in my favor), preferring a traditional approach that makes him and his staff comfortable. Many fans are content with not going on 4th and short, probably because they’re used to it.
When teams regularly win, and dominate their opponents, they can play conservatively and still have a lot of wins.
My point is they could do EVEN BETTER. And a mediocre team could do better, too.
Let me say this: the not going for it on 4th and inches was probably damaging at the level of 3 points. The game was decided by 6. The later poor clock management and choosing to kneel/center was potentially damaging to the tune of 11 points. We got an INT which was worth -7 points to stanfurd, and occurred late enough we could kneel out for the win.
Stand the whole game, stay to the end, and start yelling while they're still in the huddle. GO BEARS
by JerrottWillard45 on Dec 1, 2009 9:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What does 1 for 6 even mean? 1 for 6 is a TINY TINY sample. What were the distances and game situations for those 6 tries?
This was 4th and 6 INCHES. It wasn’t even 4th and a yard, or 4th and a foot.
by atomsareenough on Dec 1, 2009 9:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The football book says to punt. Statistics say to go for it. The fans say you’re right when it works and you’re wrong when it doesn’t.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
by HydroTech on Nov 30, 2009 3:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, and to add to that, the fans think you’re more wrong when it doesn’t work than right when it does work…
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 4:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I have repeatedly denied this.
I will not say you’re wrong when it doesn’t. I will say too bad, good try. Wise choice. Good call. Way to put us in the best position to win.
So please don’t generalize to all fans. Maybe I’m in the small minority, but I am consistent on this point.
Stand the whole game, stay to the end, and start yelling while they're still in the huddle. GO BEARS
by JerrottWillard45 on Nov 30, 2009 5:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m with you. I say that you can’t use hindsight to prove a decision. If Tedford went for it, and didn’t make it, I would still think that it’s the right call.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
by HydroTech on Nov 30, 2009 9:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Rec'd: Good post - we can disagree on a few things...
…and still be Cal fans together.
First, I agree with almost all your analysis, and I really appreciate the time you put into this. I really get a lot out of it, so keep it up! I’ll definitely be looking for the empty set, the covered up TEs, and oh yes please yes use some of the other options in the wildcat to make all of them more successful. And I think more Sofele (5-7 touches a game instead of 1-3) would be smart. I like the wildcat, it just can’t become predictable or it’s of little use.
Me thinks thou dost protest too much at criticisms of the centering play, but you’re as entitled to your opinions as I am :-) I will readily admit that centering the ball for short college FGs is of some benefit, b/c college hashes are brutally wide. And we have kicker issues. But those cut both ways (he might still miss the centered one! the kickoff! the kickoff! the odds of us coming back for a last second long FG to retake the lead!)
Importantly, how did we get set up for having to make such a decision on 3rd down? By weak, conservative playcalling on 1st and 2nd down. Stanfurd knew Tedford would go up the gut slowly with a somewhat tired RB, I knew it, and that’s what happened. I told the people at my house out loud that would happen, and I’m sad I was right.
You have to look at the clock, look at Stanford’s offense and our kick-off and defense and say “what are the likely outcomes here?”. And to be honest, the only unlikely thing that happened after Riley knelt at mid-field was Luck throwing an INT. Stanfurd was more likely to score a TD and win, and that’s what we set ourselves up for. I think Stanfurd had like a 65% chance of winning on that drive, and we Luck-ed out (sorry for that). I’m ecstatic for the win!!! I’m super happy with the outcome. But it could have been a higher probability outcome with different coaching choices.
I’ll go ahead and put this out there: I’d rather have gone for it with ALL four downs, and had a really good chance of scoring a TD (60% or maybe even better? Think of how tired the Stanfurd D was). so 60% chance of icing the game. That’s HUGE upside. Especially if run a combination of inside and outside runs, fake a pass with a delayed handoff and really give the defense something to think about without risking throwing an INT.
And if you turn over on downs it’s on probably the 5. And they have no time outs. And we’re up by 3. And there were no kickoff risks. Still in our favor to win it, and more likely than before.
If they do push down to the 30 and make a field goal (which has some probability), we have a totally decent chance of winning it in overtime, so that’s a neutral outcome the way I think of it. And they definitely have to pass a lot instead of just Gerhart’ing us if they start on the 5 and a short clock.
The odds are way better my way, and why do coaches prefer to hang on for the win and if they lose, half the fans blame the defense instead of wondering what might have happened if coach said ‘go for it!’ ? Why is there so little criticism (aside from loudmouths like me) when the team loses? “We just need to finish games” and stuff like that is spouted as an excuse. How about “We need to play to win, not to avoid losing”. But I’m repeating myself from my previous rant, sorry.
Also, you can do a lot better than put up a few anecdotal stories from this weekend about centering the ball and not going for it on 4th down. I bet you know full well about the statistical analyses that show that even in the Pro’s it’s better to go for it on 4th. You’re presenting a failed argument where the bulk of the evidence is against you.
There ARE benefits to Tedford’s method, and you are free to argue them, but you didn’t make your best case, and you didn’t argue the other side enough to make me feel you were objective, hence some of my previous rantings on this. Make solid arguments for the coaching decisions (like the wide hashes in college FB), but not excuses (“see, this other team lost once when they tried that”).
I humbly suggest you take on the weakest part of MY argument – the likelihood of losing if we get no points off that drive and are only up by 3 and Stanfurd has the ball. If you can make a strong case there, the jury may acquit your client (the honorable coach Tedford).
For your stats pleasure, I think that the percentage chance of an event happening within +/- 1 standard deviation of the mean are about 67%, not 95%. 95% is an oft-used confidence limit in many statistical calculations, but it doesn’t represent one standard deviation.
Having said that, going more than 4 standard deviations away from the mean is HIGHLY unlikely for any normally distributed set of events. Football time of posession is probably not purely normally distributed, but even so, I think a 39+ minute posession is REALLY rare! And awesome. A big factor and I can’t remember seeing any Cal game with so many long, sustained drives. Ever. Definitely not in the Tedford era – please tell me the game if I’ve forgotten it.
Can anyone bring up a distribution of ToP for college football for some large number of games?
GO BEARS! Beat the Huskies! I really want at least as good a record as the ’Furd this year.
Stand the whole game, stay to the end, and start yelling while they're still in the huddle. GO BEARS
by JerrottWillard45 on Nov 30, 2009 12:07 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
we have a totally decent chance of winning it in overtime, so that’s a neutral outcome the way I think of it.
If it went into OT, I don’t like our chances. This is a VERY simplistic opinion, but since the teams start at the 25 in OT, I just used redzone stats to do a comparison.
Up until Furd’s last drive (I subtracted their last possession as well as ND game numbers), they scored Red Zone TD’s 69%(34/49) of the time while their D gave up RedZone TD’s 62% (23/37) of the time. Our offense scores RZ TD’s 59% (23/39) of the time while our D holds opponents to RZ TD’s 53% (19/36) of the time. Furd was 100% (3/3) for RZ TDs up until their last drive while we were 57% (4/7).
If we go strictly by RZ TDs on the season, that would have been a hell of an OT. If we go by RZ TD conversion % in just that game, though we had more trips into the RZ, we also had a tendency to stall down there and Furd was more efficient in the RZ.
If anything that we can conclude from these numbers, it’s that Harbaugh is a dumb shit for not handing it off to Gerhart when they were on the 13. Gerhart was taken out of the game after that long completion but the odds of furd scoring a TD and not turning the ball over shoot way up even if they just hand they spike the ball on 1st down to stop the clock and run it 2-3 times
by Cali49a on Nov 30, 2009 12:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is a pretty good rebuttal.
I still think the risk is worth it, but yes, on paper they’re more threatening in the RZ. Of course I don’t want OT – I want the win. But failing to get the TD when you’re up by 3 is much less risky then failing when you’re down by 3. That’s what gets me all fired up. It’s bad enough when we play conservatively and we’re down 2 TDs (“I just wanted to establish the run…”) – but when we’re up by 3? Grrrr….it’s even more conservative.
I think judging by our play that day, and how tired their D was, I’d put our RZ odds at 50/50 against theirs. But you have to think of this: in ‘my world’ we go into OT with an aggressive coach. That increases your odds of getting TDs (vs. field goals).
With the actual coaching we have, if we for some reason we ended up in OT, there is no way he’d go for it on 4th and 1 from the 16, for example – he’d kick. I might go for it, desiring the TD.
I’d probably put money on the coin toss in this situation with Tedford.
Stand the whole game, stay to the end, and start yelling while they're still in the huddle. GO BEARS
by JerrottWillard45 on Nov 30, 2009 2:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I, too, would rather have seen an attempt at touchdown than the centering kneel down. You’ve already got the lead, and your kicker has been perfect all day. Go ahead and assume he can make the angled kick as well as the centered one.
Nonetheless, Tedford’s strategy to burn clock and/or ‘Furd timeouts and to maximize chances of a field goal did come with a significant payoff. The dynamics of that last Cardinal drive was significantly altered by the need to score a touchdown and the lack of timeouts. Specifically, it put the ball in Luck’s hands rather than Gerhart’s. I would have liked Tedford to show more confidence in D’Amato’s ability to kick the hash-mark field goal, but I really can’t fault his overall approach to Cal’s final red-zone possession.
Go Bears!
by California Pete on Nov 30, 2009 1:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Another way to play it....
Cal should have seen they couldn’t run the clock down far enough. I believe ’Furd took over with 2:42 left? That is almost EXACTLY the wrong amount of time to leave on the clock with your enemy down by less than a TD.
Shorter is better, b/c with no timeouts they may have serious problems with say 1:30 to work with. They could easily get up against the wall, and a single in-bounds non-1st down tackle makes all the difference.
Longer is better, say 4:30, because even if they score a TD, you will likely get the ball back with at least 1:00 and 2 timeouts (did we have 2 left?). A decent chance at it. We’ve had quick score drives before. Or they might only get a field goal and then you can kick one to win it.
So don’t burn clock unless you can get it really low – run the best plays you have – play action, whatever play, but forget burning the clock on purpose – you’re playing into their hands. Which is exactly what we did.
When you’re up in this situation, you go aggressive. The TD ices the game. If you score quickly, you can play bend but don’t break to make their first score too slow – you still win. Even if they recover the onside kick it’ll take a miracle to score twice fast enough.
If you fail to score – you play super-aggressive defense and either get the stop or LET THEM SCORE QUICKLY. Because you know you need the ball back if they score – and you still give yourself a chance to win. There is almost no chance your enemy players will be smart enough on an explosion play to kneel down at your 1 then milk the clock and count on getting a short yardage TD. (Some NFL teams are smart enough to do this – I believe this happened in a game the day after the Big Game).
Knowing when to let your enemy score quickly is almost non-existent in the college coaching world. It’s all about where the clock is. It’s one way we could have kept ourselves in the Cal vs. fUCLA game in 2005. At one point, they had the ball, and were probably going to score. If they take too long, they end the game with the lead. If you just let them score, at least you have a chance to come back.
Again, possession is undervalued by many coaches.
So the decision to center it is encouraged by the poor clock management choices – it has the ‘benefit’ of bleeding more clock, but it wasn’t a benefit! It was 30 more seconds you’d need for your comeback in case they do score!
Yet even more reason Stanfurd should have let Gerhart run it from our 13. They left too much time on the clock even if they did score a TD!
Actually, through strange pathways, this is the 3rd rebuttal to my arguments. If we had let them score instead of getting the INT, they would only be up 1, and we might have had enough time to get down far enough to kick a game winner with time running out.
If I believed we were running an aggressive pash-rushing defense that was break-sack-but above all dont-waste-time, this would perhaps back up the decision to settle for 3. Because you were PLANNING on getting ANOTHER 3.
But to play final devil’s advocate – if you have so much faith in your kicker you’d let the game winner hang on him, then let him kick from the hash at 10 yards after you go for it on 3rd – it’s still a high percentage kick!
Stand the whole game, stay to the end, and start yelling while they're still in the huddle. GO BEARS
by JerrottWillard45 on Nov 30, 2009 2:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait a second....
The weird thing was it was Gerhart who got all the yardage on that final ’furd drive. The funny thing was him not getting it after.
Stand the whole game, stay to the end, and start yelling while they're still in the huddle. GO BEARS
by JerrottWillard45 on Nov 30, 2009 2:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks to kick-off return and the Gerhart reception-and-run, Stanford certainly had time for at least one running play on that final series. But not having any timeouts may have flustered the coaching staff. Clearly they had a mindset that running the ball was off the table and that they needed to be in “hurry up” mode. I think it’s safe to say their approach would have been different if they had a time out in hand and/or trailed by only three.
Go Bears!
by California Pete on Nov 30, 2009 4:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
another example of poor coaching
this time on clock management by Stanfurd.
Why would you believe that other coaches could make errors but not ours?
I am VERY fond of Tedford & Ludwig. They make lots of good choices. They make some bad ones, and I can call them on it if I want to.
I could also choose to shut up and just say GO BEARS and nothing else, but I like to complain amongst the Cal faithful sometimes. Here in the sanctity of the blog.
I don’t get up in front of rival fans and list my criticisms.
Stand the whole game, stay to the end, and start yelling while they're still in the huddle. GO BEARS
by JerrottWillard45 on Nov 30, 2009 5:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
JerrottWillard, if you look at the link to the Coaching Decisions post from last week at the tail end of the #1 post above, you’ll see a further discussion of this discussion that might shed some more light on the play. I appreciate your thoughts and look forward to seeing what your thoughts are on that post, too.
President Emperor Warlord Of The Sun!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
by TwistNHook on Nov 30, 2009 2:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That was confusing. Here is the link.
Hydro did a great job in this post analyzing that play and creating a positive dialogue for others to join him in the discussion. Last week, Avi and I also took a look at that play (and others). We tried to look at the facts surrounding the plays to get a better appreciation as to why Tedford might have made the calls he made. Certainly, it sounds like your mind is made up whether the calls were “right” or “wrong.” I’m not here to tell you otherwise, merely to help you look at the plays from as many angles as possible so you can feel as comfortable as possible making a decision regarding them.
President Emperor Warlord Of The Sun!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
by TwistNHook on Nov 30, 2009 2:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
OK, going to read it now.
Thanks for the link.
Stand the whole game, stay to the end, and start yelling while they're still in the huddle. GO BEARS
by JerrottWillard45 on Nov 30, 2009 2:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, I read it.
I’m sorry, but I’m more confirmed than ever in my feelings.
I appreciate the long discussion there, but the comments in the threads were often much more meaningful than the analysis in the post. Sorry, dudes, I really like all the Marshawnthusiasts, but there was a terrible combination of hypocrisy and blatant misunderstanding of stats.
Some of the comments corrected it. Some folks just don’t get what it means to say “you increase your odds of winning by going for it on 4th and 1”. If you don’t get that, we can’t argue.
You also MUST understand the following: judging the 1st decision to punt on 4th and 1 by the outcome of the following stanfurd TD was ‘concluded’ to be unfair. Actually it’s not. If you don’t punt, they don’t gain possession. Possession is a necessary condition for scoring a TD.
Failure to account for the positive outcomes of the ‘aggressive’ play calls renders arguments about the risk level of negatives outcomes moot. Some folks just keep repeating this mistake and it’s frustrating.
Some people totally get it, and that’s good enough for me.
Thanks for the discussion, gentlemen, sorry if I polluted another thread with this, but Hydro brought it up again, I don’t think he told the complete story, so I wanted to make my points again.
Love this blog,
Stand the whole game, stay to the end, and start yelling while they're still in the huddle. GO BEARS
by JerrottWillard45 on Nov 30, 2009 3:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No pollution here, JW. We are extraordinarily appreciative of your thoughts even if they are “I disagree strongly with your assessment, TnH.”
President Emperor Warlord Of The Sun!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
by TwistNHook on Nov 30, 2009 3:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, you're wrong
If you go for it and fail, the Furd get the ball back WITH a much shorter field. You’re assuming Cal will automatically pick up the first down—although the odds favor it.
This is outcome bias…you can’t pinpoint previous decisions as the reasons for an upcoming event. How come you’re so willing to blame Tedford for not going for it and lay no blame on the defenders and Gregory for giving the TD up?
Email: bearsnecessities@gmail.com
by Avinash on Nov 30, 2009 5:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
*although the odds favor it, it is by no means secure.
Email: bearsnecessities@gmail.com
by Avinash on Nov 30, 2009 5:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Glad you caught that.
it’s a trap! I didn’t put in my usual caveat to see if anyone was reading my drivel in detail. Awesome! You were reading!
Yes, there is a chance you’ll fail on 4th, and a chance you’ll succeed. The odds are important. Short field is better for ‘Furd. The stats say it’s worth the short field risk of failure. That’s taken into account. It’s all taken into account, but some folks doesn’t seem to believe me so I try to lay out the different outcomes and explain where the error in thinking comes from that seems to lead to the logical conclusion that punting is wise.
Trust me, it isn’t.
The 1st event has a direct relation to the 2nd event, so the two can be discussed together.
I do have criticism for the defenders and Gregory for giving the TD up. But I know the odds are they give up points at some rate. We don’t have a zero-points defense (and neither does anyone else). That’s taken into account.
Did you think the D played surprisingly, stunningly bad on that final ’Furd drive? I was a bit disappointed, but it was well within my expected range of their ability. Hey – they got the INT Stanfurd handed to them! Good execution that play!
Knowing what I know about our D, which is not that different from your average college D, I judge the calls preceding their appearance.
And I already said this. If Tedford knew something special about our D’s ability to stop ‘furd on a given drive, than fine. But you and I both know he didn’t. He miscalculated the odds of stopping them. Most coaches would do something similar to what JT did (though probably many would have run it on 3rd up the middle instead of kneeling, yet gotten the same results). So he’s in good or even great company.
And they’re all wrong. :-)
Stand the whole game, stay to the end, and start yelling while they're still in the huddle. GO BEARS
by JerrottWillard45 on Nov 30, 2009 5:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Did you forget the five to seven drives in between the two scores where Cal held the Furd to three to six play drive and punts? Overall, the defense played a very good game, only giving up 14 points on sustained drives, and the drive just before they stopped them on 4th down.
Email: bearsnecessities@gmail.com
by Avinash on Nov 30, 2009 5:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
standard deviations
For your stats pleasure, I think that the percentage chance of an event happening within +/- 1 standard deviation of the mean are about 67%, not 95%. 95% is an oft-used confidence limit in many statistical calculations, but it doesn’t represent one standard deviation.
You mis-interpret my statement. One standard deviation plus and minus the mean is 67%. Two standard deviations plus and minus the mean (which is what I wrote) is 95%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
by HydroTech on Nov 30, 2009 3:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Oops.
I read too quickly. I hope it was clear I agreed our ToP was very rare and outside the distribution.
Stand the whole game, stay to the end, and start yelling while they're still in the huddle. GO BEARS
by JerrottWillard45 on Nov 30, 2009 5:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I see your point. But bottom line, your odds are made up. They are theoretical. They prove you’re right if your odds are right. Nobody knows whether they truly are or not. It’s just a lot of speculation.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
by HydroTech on Nov 30, 2009 3:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, it definitely depends on the odds and stats
And they have been published and are what I go by.
Stand the whole game, stay to the end, and start yelling while they're still in the huddle. GO BEARS
by JerrottWillard45 on Nov 30, 2009 5:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And I do like your point about going for it all four downs, and at the worst we turn it over on their 5 yard line with them having no time outs. But as others have pointed out, they’d only need a field goal to tie. A touchdown could win the game (as since there would be no time left for us to re-score). If we went to over time, I actually don’t like our chances in overtime as since they would have the momentum and home field advantage.
You clearly make a good argument. And you might be right. But I could manipulate those odds/stats you used to make your same argument wrong. So as I said in my previous comment, it all comes down to what the odds/stats are.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
by HydroTech on Nov 30, 2009 4:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So as I said in my previous comment, it all comes down to what the odds/stats are.
Based on what I’ve read, it’s much more reasonable to conclude the stats say going for it than not going for it. As I mentioned earlier, the research done on this topic is generic. Nobody has researched these exact teams to come up with the exact percentages for this particular situation – it’d be a lot of effort with no real reward, so you’re right that we’re just speculating. Also, the research I’ve seen has all been NFL, so obviously it’s not going to be exact for college. The thing is, in such a short situation, the gap in winning probability between going for it and not is so large, that even given all the adjustments you’d have to make for the specific circumstances, there’s basically no reasonable way you could make it work so not going for it was the better option.
Hmmm…I just typed all that out assuming we were talking about 4th and short and punting or not, but it looks like we’re talking about the centering play. Nevermind, strikethrough! (I wrote all that out don’t feel like just deleting it all!)
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 4:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't like getting ahead of myself, but...
These are the possible outcomes, knowing now there is a 100% chance of both of us going to bowl games.
Furd’s record: 8-4 now, either 9-4 or 8-5 after their bowl game.
Cal’s record: 8-3 now, either 8-5, 9-4 or 10-3 after Washington and our bowl game.
Us beating Washington guarantees at least as good a record. That goal is met by this one game. Anything further is getting ahead of ourselves and looking past Washington.
Beat the Huskies!! An away game at Washington in December is tough!
Stand the whole game, stay to the end, and start yelling while they're still in the huddle. GO BEARS
by JerrottWillard45 on Nov 30, 2009 1:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Good post, but still disagree
that Harbaugh made the wrong call on 4th and 8. His thinking at that point had to be that if he kicks it away, he will never see the ball again. His defense has been on the field for almost 40 minutes, Cal has had 5 drives of 72 yards or more, and his offense is relatively fresh. I think this is the only call he could make at the time. Some decisions are right or wrong when you make them — the correctness does not depend on the outcome. I think that this is one of those times.
by GoldenBear 77 on Nov 30, 2009 4:12 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
but...
how good were the chances of actually making the 4th and 8?
by atomsareenough on Nov 30, 2009 4:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Some decisions are right or wrong when you make them — the correctness does not depend on the outcome.
Absolutely – sometimes the correct call is going to not work out when the incorrect call will. The best you can do is play the odds. I don’t think you can make the case that going for it in this situation was playing the odds, though. 4th and long conversions are tough, and when you take field position into account, in most situations Harbaugh is just giving Cal points. In addition, even if he makes it, he still has a long ways to go to score points for Stanford. Going for it was not playing the odds correctly.
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 4:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I LOVE EMPTY. MORE EMPTY. DEPTH AT WR! QB CONFIDENT IN THIS FORMATION AND ABLE TO GAIN A FEW YARDS IF IT BREAKS DOWN!
EVERY PLAY!
/capitalanalysis
Physical.
by Thoroughbred on Nov 30, 2009 4:27 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
The only problem with empty is that the defense can now play exclusively pass
So coverage is much stronger—better secondaries can break Riley down if he does decide to throw. Of course if he gains a McNabbeseque ability to run with the ball at the opportune times then the upside is very strong.
Email: bearsnecessities@gmail.com
by Avinash on Nov 30, 2009 5:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Part of the reason why the empty set is so effective is that Cal runs a lot of vertical routes out of the formation. The vertical routes push the defense back quickly – they have to respect the deep pass – which allows space to open up underneath for ins and digs (think Lagemann) or for Riley to run.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
by HydroTech on Nov 30, 2009 9:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The 4th-and-1 decision
Prior to today, I’d never seen the AdvancedNFLStats website. It’s interesting stuff, and even though I’ve been skeptical above, the posts on fourth-down decision making are very much worth reading.
Just for fun, I decided to apply their game-situation Win Probability calculator to Tedford’s much-discussed decision to punt when up 10 with about 9 minutes left in the fourth quarter. While not offering anything conclusive re: the wisdom of punting in that situation, the results do reveal that the calculator is a piece of crap flawed.
By punting down to the Stanford 13, Cal secured a 92% chance of winning the game, according to the calculator. Had Cal gone for the first down and failed, then Stanford taking over at the Cal 46 decreases the Bears’ chances down to 87%. A ha, one might conclude, the risk associated with going for it was actually quite small, as the cost of failure was only about five percentage points and still left the Bears in good position to win the game.
But what about the potential reward of going for it. Well, if Cal converts a QB sneak and has a first down on their 47, the odds of winning are estimated by the calculator to be 89%. That’s right. Despite all the talk about possession being more important than field position, this particular scenario suggests Cal is better off lining up for defense at the ‘Furd 13 than still possessing the ball back around midfield. Here’s the real kicker, though. According to the calculator, Cal’s chances of winning before the play, when it was still 4th and 1 at the 46, was 91%! In other words, by converting the first down, Cal’s odds of winning actually decreased!?
I’m all for statistical analysis, but suffice it to say that football is a very complicated game and trying to boil every possible scenario down into a single decision-guiding model strikes me, at least, as a fool’s errand.
Go Bears!
by California Pete on Nov 30, 2009 5:42 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
OK there are flaws
I admit, I don’t understand how going from 4th and 1 to 1st and 10 could conceivably lower your chances of winning so that looks like a flaw in the calculator to me. Something’s wrong with that page – or we don’t understand how to tell it who has the ball or own/opponent’s is backwards or something. Because as you improve the yardage the stats get worse. So maybe we have it backwards or it assume the other team has posession.
Is there an alternative?
Stand the whole game, stay to the end, and start yelling while they're still in the huddle. GO BEARS
by JerrottWillard45 on Nov 30, 2009 6:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A tangent to our statistics-discussion tangent
Good piece from the Numbers Guy in the Wall Street Journal.
I can’t think of a direct application of Simpson’s Paradox to our discussion above regarding fourth-down decision making, but it nonetheless relates to my more general concerns about leaning so heavily on aggregated data in trying to break down specific coaching decisions.
Go Bears!
by California Pete on Dec 1, 2009 9:49 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

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