Was Jeff Tedford Too Passive? Was Jim Harbaugh Too Aggressive?
Who's a better head coach, Jim Harbaugh or this 5th grader?
There've been a lot of hand-wringing about the playcalling by the coaches by Cal fans, about how Jeff Tedford nearly gagged away the Big Game with ultra-conservative playcalls that would've made Pat Robertson shudder. It could certainly be argued that taking one or two extra risks would've ended the game instead of leaving the door at open for the Furd to climb back into it
What was lost in the shuffle though was the absolute badness of Jim Harbaugh's aggressive calls. Unlike Tedford's calls, where there's some debate as to whether they were prudent or imprudent, there's not much debate about Harbaugh's playcalls.
Twist and I discuss the following calls after the jump.
1) Tedford choosing to punt on 4th and short rather than going for it--next drive led to a quick Furd TD to cut the lead to 3; we both agree it was an ok call, although we wish
2) Harbaugh going for it on 4th and 8 deep in his own territory--led to a Cal FG that made it a touchdown game; we both agree the call was stupid.
3) Tedford choosing to kneel and center the ball on 3rd and goal--prevented a chance for a Cal TD, settled for the FG; we both agree the call was a little conservative, but again had merit and did make the Furd's chances of winning much longer.
4) Harbaugh passing the ball on 1st and 2nd down with Gerhart available--led to the game-clinching interception. As this 5th grader above us says, very questionable.
Twist: These calls were certainly controversial. To fully understand the situation, let's try to look at them in context at the time they were made. I wanted to take a closer look at the 4th and 1 call.Here's the thing. If it was up to me, I probably woulda gone for it. But I'm also the person who does fake punts in Madden on 2nd down and has a "No Kicking" policy, too. I'm an imbecile. I realize that here in the blogosphere, we are supposed to have extreme opinions that create a lively, if oftimes redick discussion and, most importantly, hits galore. That's never really been my style, per se. Like I said, with my limited knowledge, I probably would have gone for it, but instead of talking about what I would have done or even what one *should* have done, what I want to do was take a closer and clearer look at the situation that Tedford faced. Try to get a better understanding at the decision that Tedford faced at that time, instead of after the game or days later.
I fear that there has been a lot of miscommunication based on faulty remembrances about Tedford's decision. Personally, I have seen people say things like:
"Tedford shoulda gone for it to ice the game."
"Tedford shoulda gone for it, because we couldn't be stopped."
"Tedford shoulda gone for it, because after they punted, Stanford was right back there just a few plays later."
Based on the ESPN Play By Play, here is the drive.
| California at 12:47 | CAL | STAN | ||
| 1st and 10 at CAL 27 | Shane Vereen rush for 4 yards to the Cal 31. | 31 | 21 | |
| 2nd and 6 at CAL 31 | Shane Vereen rush for 5 yards to the Cal 36. | |||
| 3rd and 1 at CAL 36 | Timeout CALIFORNIA, clock 11:07. | |||
| 3rd and 1 at CAL 36 | Kevin Riley rush for 1 yard to the Cal 37 for a 1ST down. | |||
| 1st and 10 at CAL 37 | Shane Vereen rush for 3 yards to the Cal 40. | |||
| 2nd and 7 at CAL 40 | Shane Vereen rush for 6 yards to the Cal 46. | |||
| 3rd and 1 at CAL 46 | Kevin Riley rush for no gain to the Cal 46. | |||
| 4th and 1 at CAL 46 | Bryan Anger punt for 41 yards, fair catch by Michael Spanos at the Stanf 13. | |||
| DRIVE TOTALS: Cal drive: 6 plays 19 yards, 03:34 Cal PUNT | ||||
The first misconception that I've seen is that this play happened much later in the game. However, this drive starts with nearly 13 minutes left in the 4th quarter. It ends with a little over 9 minutes left in the 4th quarter. The play, in specific, took place with probably about 10 minutes left in the 4th, although it is slightly unclear to me exactly when from this play by play. So, to me, the concept that Tedford could have "iced" the game here seems laughable. You can't ice a game with 9-10 minutes left. Period.
I realize that the counter argument is that if Cal successfully continues the drive, they can a)take more time off the clock and b)go up either 34-21 or even 39-21! Certainly, 39-21 with 9 or fewer minutes left in the 4th does seem unbeatable, no matter how much Cal Cal is. And Cal is fairly Cal, let's not forget that.
But that seems to assume a lot. If Cal converts here, they are at their own 47 yard line. Not Stanford's 22 or something like that. They still have 53 more yards to go to hit pay dirt. So, to me, attempting and perhaps even successfully converting the 4th down conversion does not an iced game make. So, hopefully, looking at the play by play can clear up that conception.
The second thought I've seen out there is that Cal shoulda gone for it, because they've been doing really well in the running game and could probably have just pounded it home there. That is a fair point to me. We had been performing really well in the running game.
But we had also been performing really well on defense. After Stanford jumped out to a quick 14-0 lead in the early part of the 1st quarter, Cal's D had held Stanford to merely 1 Touchdown since. If my math is accurate, Stanford had gained 110 total yards between scoring their 2nd TD with about 5 minutes left in the 1st quarter and the play call in question here. 69 of those yards came on their sole TD drive in the 3rd quarter. Basically, that's roughly 38 minutes of game time, 2+ quarters, with a grand total of 110 yards given up by the Cal D.
Any way you cut that, that is incredibly impressive. Luck goes 4-14, which is......not good. Just the drive before, Stanford had showed wild desperation, throwing long on its first 2 passes and going 3 and out quickly and quietly. So, the concept of forcing them to drive 80 yards to pay dirt after holding them down for so long doesn't seem so bad to me. Tedford was banking on his defense being able to hold Stanford down at that point.
Avi: CBKWit mentioned in the podcast he disagreed with this decision more than the 3rd down kneeldown one (which we're building up to). I'd say this call was very similar to the Belichick playcall (2 minutes, up a score at your own 30 seems about the equivalent as being up 10 points at midfield). Unlike the Patriots coach, Tedford chose not to take the risky decision and trust his defense, which up to this point had shut them down.
Now as Smart Football and Advanced NFL stats pointed out, going for it on 4th down at this range isn't that bad a call. The stats seem to favor going for it--at that range, the success rate is around 75-80%. However, there's still a 20-25% chance that it fails, and given how hard we've been pushing Vereen, and the fact that we couldn't pick up 1 yard on a 3rd and short on a quarterback sneak (which is usually a sure thing), I can see that Tedford would be heistant to go for it and hand the Cardinal any momentum. As Bill Simmons said, statistics can only tell you so much; you have to assess the situation too.
- The referees had been handing out questionable spots throughout that drive, and the possibility you get screwed again always factors in.
- You're on the road (yeah I know, the least intimidating road stadium in the world, but it's still the road) trying to protect an upset bid.
- The crowd had been dead most of the game, but give them the first down and there's a chance you rev them up for the remainder of the 4th quarter.
- You've been holding Furd's offense in check the entire game.
- You don't want to hand the Cardinal a short field and give them a quick chance to cut the lead to a one score game.
Twist: Of course, I would be remiss if I did not point out that the Cal D was not able to hold Stanford down at that point. I have seen many people claim that Stanford was right back at the 50 just a few plays later. It wasn't actually even just a few plays later. It was merely one, the big 37 yard play where Luck hit Owusu. Certainly, I'm MUCH happier that Stanford hit this 37 yard pass from their own 13 as compared to Cal's 46.
| Stanford at 9:03 | CAL | STAN | ||
| 1st and 10 at STAN 13 | Andrew Luck pass complete to Chris Owusu for 37 yards to the 50 yard line for a 1ST down. | 31 | 21 | |
| 1st and 10 at STAN 50 | Andrew Luck pass complete to Chris Owusu for 12 yards to the Cal 38 for a 1ST down. | |||
| 1st and 10 at CAL 38 | Andrew Luck pass complete to Ryan Whalen for 12 yards to the Cal 26 for a 1ST down. | |||
| 1st and 10 at CAL 26 | Andrew Luck pass incomplete to Ryan Whalen. | |||
| 2nd and 10 at CAL 26 | Toby Gerhart rush for 21 yards to the Cal 5 for a 1ST down. | |||
| 1st and Goal at CAL 5 | Toby Gerhart rush for 5 yards for a TOUCHDOWN. | 31 | 27 | |
| Nate Whitaker extra point GOOD. | 31 | 28 | ||
| Nate Whitaker kickoff for 66 yards returned by Jeremy Ross for 24 yards to the Cal 28. | ||||
| DRIVE TOTALS: Stanf drive: 6 plays 87 yards, 01:44 Stanf TD | ||||
In 1:44, they travel nearly the length of the field, gaining over 2/3rds of the yards they have gained in the last 38 minutes of the game. Andrew Luck is 3-4 and Gerhart averages 13 yards a carry (kind of a skewed stat there). Certainly frustrating after it looked like Cal might gone for it on 4th and taken more time off the clock and even gotten up by 18 points!
Was the Stanford O hyped by the Stanford D stopping Cal on 3rd down? I don't know. But they woulda been, it follows, even more inspired if Stanford stopped Cal on 4th down. And only had 47 yards to go instead of 87.
Yes, it is a lot of fun to imagine Cal performing the best case scenarios. And it is frustrating to compare the reality of the situation with what could have been. It's also important to look at the worst case scenarios that Tedford was attempting to avoid and compare those to what might have been. Here, my frustrations lie less with the call, although I am not sure I necessarily agree with it, and more with the fact that the Cal D allowed the Stanford O to go 87 yards in 6 plays and 1:44.
I think people are viewing the call as a negative call, because of the negative result (the following Stanford TD) that did not have much to do with that call per se. And if the Cal D had stopped the Stanford O on the next drive, nobody would have much discussed the 4th down punt. Although, certainly if the 4th down attempt had failed and Stanford had quickly scored and gone on to win, people would have lambasted Tedford for that odd 4th down call, claiming the D was playing great and it woulda been better to just trap Stanford deep in their own territory.
Hopefully, this has cleared up the situation and will allow us to look at the decision making process with the facts that existed AT THE TIME OF THE CALL as compared to the 20/20 hindsight and misconceptions that I think many are currently laboring under. Again, the idiot that I am, I probably woulda gone for it there, but, being the risk adverse person that I am, think I have a grasp of how Tedford's decision making process went.
Avi: Indeed, that's the outcome bias working--we're judging Tedford for decisions made based on what happened afterwards as opposed to the value of the decision at the time it was made. It's human, but it's erroneous to blame Tedford for this decision because the Furd happened to score.
Twist: Let's go one drive before that:
| Stanford at 4:27 | CAL | STAN | ||
| 1st and 10 at STAN 21 | Andrew Luck pass incomplete to Coby Fleener. | 31 | 28 | |
| 2nd and 10 at STAN 21 | Toby Gerhart rush for 2 yards to the Stanf 23. | |||
| 3rd and 8 at STAN 23 | Andrew Luck pass incomplete to Chris Owusu. | |||
| 4th and 8 at STAN 23 | Andrew Luck pass incomplete to Jim Dray. | |||
| DRIVE TOTALS: Stanf drive: 4 plays 2 yards, 00:50 Stanf DOWNS | ||||
This is the drive preceding. Luck not looking so good on there. But the key portion here is the 4th down play. Stanford is on its own 23. Roughly 4 minutes and change left. All 3 time outs. In the previous two Cal drives, we had gone 12 plays for a total of 35 yards. Most of which came on one 18 yard pass completion. Two punts. Clearly, the momentum had shifted back to Stanford at this point. So, if you punt and can hold Cal, you got another great shot. Certainly, if Tedford was in this situation, he would have punted. But Harbaugh decided to go for it. On 4th and 8. On his own 23. With 3 time outs and 4 minutes left in a 3 point game.
Avi: Unlike the 4th and inches, which you could consider either good or bad, this was a truly atrocious call. There's a small chance Luck succeeds here and scrambles for the first down, but only the remotest possibility that he throws for one (9 for 26 on the game up to this throw). It's 4th and long too, so the odds of a run are totally minimal, leaving the defense likely to play mainly the pass, and maybe a Luck scramble.
More importantly, YOU ARE HANDING CAL POINTS IF YOU FAIL. A field goal means you now need to drive down the field, likely without the majority of your timeouts. A touchdown ends the game. If Tedford had made a decision like this I'd be tearing my hair out. You punt the football and trust your defense, which has stopped the Bears from scoring the last two times (with some home town reffing helping them out, but whatever). Get the ball back and all you need to do is drive for a field goal, which given Furd's quick strike offense is totally feasible.
Imagine if the Furd had gotten to the red zone down 3 instead of down 6--think that the playcalling changes bigtime for Harbaugh? I feel that way.
Some Cal fans out there might prefer Harbaugh's aggressiveness because it's manly. It's ballsy. It sticks it to other opponents, it makes you feel awesome if it succeeds, it reinforces all the cliches of a football coach. It's just more social biases at work--we feel better because he played to win rather than playing not to lose. It doesn't excuse the fact that it's a bad decision the same way Les Miles's decision to dial up a throw to the end zone with 7 seconds left in field goal range. Ballsy, but literally fucking stupid.
Twist: And his ultra-aggressiveness does not pay off. Of course, when Stanford turned the ball over on downs, Cal fans in my section and, assuredly, other sections started to believe that the game was done. Cal would punch it in, make it a 2 score game with a minute or so left and we all go home happy.
Then, this happened:
| California at 3:32 | CAL | STAN | ||
| 1st and 10 at STAN 23 | Shane Vereen rush for 12 yards to the Stanf 11 for a 1ST down. | 31 | 28 | |
| 1st and 10 at STAN 11 | Shane Vereen rush for no gain to the Stanf 11. | |||
| 2nd and 10 at STAN 11 | Timeout STANFORD, clock 02:55. | |||
| 2nd and 10 at STAN 11 | Shane Vereen rush for 2 yards to the Stanf 9. | |||
| 3rd and 8 at STAN 9 | Timeout STANFORD, clock 02:48. | |||
| 3rd and 8 at STAN 9 | Kevin Riley rush for a loss of 2 yards to the Stanf 11. | |||
| 4th and 10 at STAN 11 | Timeout STANFORD, clock 02:46. | |||
| 4th and 10 at STAN 11 | Vince D'Amato 28 yard field goal GOOD. | 34 | 28 | |
| Giorgio Tavecchio kickoff for 42 yards returned by Josh Catron for 14 yards to the Stanf 42. | ||||
| DRIVE TOTALS: Cal drive: 5 plays 12 yards, 00:46 Cal FG | ||||
Let's take a deeper look here. Vereen starts off with a killer rush. However, his next two attempts net 2 total yards. Cal does not in any way attempt anything close to a pass in this situation.
Many people were greatly concerned about this lack of killer instinct. Maybe it is a lack of killer instinct, I don't know. But, in my belief, the downside of a pass attempt is FAR greater than the downside of any rush attempt. Forcing Stanford to use all 3 time outs limits Stanford's offensive playcalling on their next drive.
I know what you are saying here. But if we score, their next drive don't matter. A salient point. Here, Tedford is going for the least risky plan. Especially considering that they IN NO WAY trust Riley in the red zone. We saw it in the Arizona game and we saw it again in the Stanford game. After Riley throwing 3 picks in the red zone and fumbling once there also, once they get near the goal line, they would rather take 3 then risk a pick. Considering that Vereen had had an amazing day to that point, they put it into the hands of the man they trust the most. I believe they even used a WildBear or two, to try to mix it up. This is a point lost in all the "TAKE A SHOT AT THE END ZONE!" lines. The upsides of the plays called seem limited not because they have low upsides, but, because they just plain didn't work.
So, Cal decides to drain Stanford of time outs, force them to have to go the length of the field in roughly 2 minutes with no time outs. To ensure that, he decides to center the ball. At the close range, centering the ball becomes epically more important. The angles are much harsher the closer in you go. And Cal has certainly had its fair share of kicking troubles this year. So, I see no problem with this play.
IMG_9968 (via Monica's Dad)
Avi: There's also the matter of Riley's red zone struggles. This season, he's only completed 45% of his passes in the red zone. Worse, he's thrown three interceptions, one of which destroyed early momentum against USC, another which could've cost us the Arizona upset (the other was earlier in the Big Game and was not Riley's fault). Although he threw a TD early in the 4th quarter, it wasn't an easy throw. Plus with a 3rd and goal at the 8, Furd's defense will probably play hard to guard the end zone on a pass.
Imagine if the Bears had thrown an incompletion that stopped the clock and left the Cardinal with one timeout, or worse, thrown a pick with the Cardinal likely playing the run. You'd probably feel much worse waking up Sunday morning.
No, the only decision here is to run the football a la Arizona, preferrably up the middle to center the ball and hope that you find the crease to the end zone. I find it quizzical that in this situation (like on 4th and inches) you don't trust Vereen to secure the ball, considering he's not fumbled all game long. I would've liked to see a run, but I guess when they got nothing on the first two runs they figured Vereen was spent and decided not to get too fancy at the end and do something totally mind-blowing (and there've been plenty of mind-blowing finishes in college football before).
Leave the Cardinal with no timeouts and they have no choice now; score a touchdown or lose the game. You're limiting Harbaugh's options, and that might've helped force the last questionable decision of the game.
Twist: Of course, after hitting the field goal and kicking off, Stanford then proceeds to march the length of the field VERY quickly.
| Stanford at 2:42 | CAL | STAN | ||
| 1st and 10 at STAN 42 | Andrew Luck rush for 12 yards to the Cal 46 for a 1ST down. | 34 | 28 | |
| 1st and 10 at CAL 46 | Andrew Luck rush for 4 yards to the Cal 42. | |||
| 2nd and 6 at CAL 42 | Andrew Luck pass complete to Toby Gerhart for 29 yards to the Cal 13 for a 1ST down. | |||
| 1st and 10 at CAL 13 | Andrew Luck pass incomplete to Coby Fleener. | |||
| 2nd and 10 at CAL 13 | Andrew Luck pass intercepted by Michael Mohamed at the Cal 3, returned for 6 yards to the Cal 9. | |||
| DRIVE TOTALS: Stanf drive: 5 plays 45 yards, 01:06 Stanf INT | ||||
The bulk of the drive is the one pass to Gerhart for about 30 yards. A frightening moment for any Cal fan. But one that we might have seen more of if Cal had attempted a pass and failed. Luck had looked terrible all day, going 10-30. Gerhart had certainly killed us, but Tedford's plan to drain Stanford of all 3 of its timeouts had limited Stanford's ability to use Gerhart. When you have the ball at Cal's 13, you want to go to your stud RB first, right? He averaged 6.8 yards on the day per carry. Give it to him twice and bam, you score the potential game-winning TD. But with no time outs, Stanford could NOT do that. They had to throw throw throw. And when you throw throw throw, what happens? Well, just the series before, you have 3 incompletes and fail. Here, Luck threw another incomplete and then a pick to the Prophet.
As a final thought, I know Cal fans love ballsy aggressiveness. I get that. They want to see stirring sacks and long bombs (although once you start at the 23, you can't really long bomb). But there are considerations other than proximity to goal line that come into effect here when choosing a play.
Tedford didn't necessarily see it as a difference between a 38-28 game and a 34-28 game, like many fans do. He saw it as a difference between a 34 (maybe)-28 game where Stanford had 1-3 time outs and roughly 3:30 left and a 34 (for sure)-28 game where Stanford had 2:42 and 0 time outs left. When viewed from that prism, I, the risk adverse person that I am, have to agree with the game management here. Sure, the otherworldy talent of Toby Gerhart nearly gave us all heart attacks. But when you have a limited playbook and have to rush your plays because of no time outs, bad things happen.
And a bad thing did happen. To Stanford! Especially compared to if Stanford had punted on the 23, stopped Cal, driven 30+ yards and hit a field goal to tie the game. This may be controversial, but I fully support Tedford's calls here.
Avi: I was baffled by Harbaugh's playcalling on 1st and 2nd down in the red zone. You have two minutes on the clock, and probably five-six plays to go. At this point, all you can do is score (turning the ball over ends the game), so why not run the football? If you score a touchdown immediately, you leave TWO MINUTES on the clock for Riley and the Bears to march downfield on a pass defense he's torched all game long.
More importantly, Andrew Luck is even worse with his accuracy in the red zone than Riley (after the Big Game, he's barely at 40%). Whether it's due to his receivers dropping passes or him making bad decisions. Although Cal held him down for much of the game, it was clear to almost any Cal fans we were more terrified of Gerhart running it up on us than Luck throwing it on us.
To be honest, I'm not sure Harbaugh should've even called that final timeout. You let Cal run the clock down to two minutes, keep that timeout in your back pocket, and in case you get to the goal-line (Furd's been a quick-hitting team all year, and their last drive only took 90 seconds), you have it ready so you can still factor Gerhart's running ability into the equation.
I hate to say it, but I feel the perfect college football coach choked a little under the spotlight. Just a little. (Actually, what the hell am I saying, I LOVE to say it.)
via calbearsonline.com
Who cares about us though, what were your thoughts on these calls?
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214 comments
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Comments
The only playcall I agree with is the one that people are bitching about the most: not going for the TD and instead putting the all the pressure squarely on Luck to score for the win. You can’t argue with the fact that it worked.
by BerkeleyChris on Nov 25, 2009 3:20 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Of course you can argue with the fact that it worked
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Nov 25, 2009 1:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, certainly you can. But my comeback will be “… but it worked”
by BerkeleyChris on Nov 25, 2009 1:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
this lady must have a killer investment strategy...
by atomsareenough on Nov 25, 2009 1:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
She’s doing better than my portfolio, let me just say
by BerkeleyChris on Nov 25, 2009 4:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
obviously then, by your logic, you need to start investing in lottery tickets. :)
by atomsareenough on Nov 25, 2009 4:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY-UXQi4E5c
"Let me tell you a story. I was a political prisoner for two years. The instant I was released I ran to McDonald's. I had a Big Mac and a Coke.
It was fantastic."
-Toyama Koichi, US Presidential candidate from Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZqOkeYbB0
by AERose on Nov 25, 2009 4:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously betting my house on double zero on the roulette wheel was the right play
It worked!
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Nov 25, 2009 1:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Congratulations! Time to double or nothing!
by BerkeleyChris on Nov 25, 2009 4:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
(the other was earlier in the Big Game and was not Riley’s fault)
Insomuch as the o-line allowed the pocket to collapse or because Vereen tipped the ball? Because if we’re putting the blame on the offensive line, that’s cool, but the pick definitely wasn’t on anyone other than the pass blockers and Riley.
Also, a thought: the Furd was unduly fortunate to have made it to the 13 on the final drive of the game. On the play that got them there Luck was limited to choosing between trying to desperately scramble forward and accept a minimal gain at best or throw to a guy who had single-digit receptions all year. The odds were not terribly in favor of Luck and Gerhart making that connection.
"Let me tell you a story. I was a political prisoner for two years. The instant I was released I ran to McDonald's. I had a Big Mac and a Coke.
It was fantastic."
-Toyama Koichi, US Presidential candidate from Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZqOkeYbB0
by AERose on Nov 25, 2009 3:28 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
It was a freak interception because of the tip. More likely it would have been an incompletion.
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by Avinash on Nov 25, 2009 3:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also the Stanford Defender made a great dive to catch it. Gotta give credit where its due.
Unless its Stanford, which, coincidentally, it is, so, wow! No credit there!
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by TwistNHook on Nov 25, 2009 8:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Without the tip, I think the defender would have caught it in full stride for a pick six.
by sec119 on Nov 25, 2009 9:58 AM PST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
well, thank god for the tip then!
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by TwistNHook on Nov 25, 2009 9:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The poll is a little awkward. I agree with Harbaugh’s calls because I wanted Cal to win.
by sec119 on Nov 25, 2009 5:32 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, I chose 3, but you’ll never know which three
Undefeated in Southern California since Oct. 2009...
by CruzinBears on Nov 25, 2009 8:33 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You could tell us.
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by TwistNHook on Nov 25, 2009 8:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Its under embargo, i will need clearance
Undefeated in Southern California since Oct. 2009...
by CruzinBears on Nov 25, 2009 8:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The clearest call for me
was Harbaugh’s call on 4th down. His defense had been on the field all day, they were tired, they were getting rolled, and his thought had to be — if I give up the ball, I do not believe I will ever get it back. I believe he needed to take that chance.
As for Tedford’s call on the third down, I think that he has the pulse of this team. He gives them as much credit as they deserve. Vereen is tired (understandably), and forcing Stanford to score a touchdown (which they only had done twice after the first five minutes, and CAL had a rested defense) makes sense. Yes, Riley had a “look” on his face, but Riley always wants to fly (that is a good thing), although his skill level is not there yet. So, on this one, reasonably minds can differ, but on balance, I will go with the guy who brought the Bears out of the big hole after Oregon and USC. He told us that he was going to manage more than the X’s and O’s, and he has done that.
by GoldenBear 77 on Nov 25, 2009 7:31 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Agreed, if it was Riley calling the plays Id bet youd see bootleg play action long bombs all the time. He loves to run around and throw big passes and have a fun time out there. Great to have in a quarterback, not so much for a play caller.
President Emperor Warlord Of The Sun!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
by TwistNHook on Nov 25, 2009 8:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Would you say he’s just like a kid out there?
by Kai on Nov 25, 2009 10:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I would also say his inclination seems to be “fuck it, I’m going long.”
"Let me tell you a story. I was a political prisoner for two years. The instant I was released I ran to McDonald's. I had a Big Mac and a Coke.
It was fantastic."
-Toyama Koichi, US Presidential candidate from Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZqOkeYbB0
by AERose on Nov 25, 2009 1:13 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
His defense had been on the field all day, they were tired, they were getting rolled, and his thought had to be — if I give up the ball, I do not believe I will ever get it back. I believe he needed to take that chance.
This is fair…except they just forced Cal into a 4th and 10! They were starting to stiffen up and did so on the final FG drive too. It seemed like the defense was either starting to do the right things or they were keying in that Cal was playing the clock.
Email: bearsnecessities@gmail.com
by Avinash on Nov 25, 2009 12:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Refs
I’m actually pissed about the spotting of the ball in the 1st quarter,
The sequence:
California at 9:07 CAL STAN
1st and 10 at CAL 12 Shane Vereen rush for 2 yards to the Cal 14. 0 7
2nd and 8 at CAL 14 Kevin Riley rush for 7 yards to the Cal 21.
3rd and 1 at CAL 21 Kevin Riley rush for a loss of 4 yards to the Cal 17.
4th and 5 at CAL 17 Team punt for 2 yards, downed at the Cal 19.
DRIVE TOTALS: Cal drive: 3 plays 5 yards, 02:12 Cal PUNT
I was watching this on Versus, but after that 2nd down play, Riley looked he made the damn first down. Which, of course, if he does, eliminates the need to punt, and the game proceeds differently from that point. But the refs then place the ball further back and we know the rest.
Was Riley’s knee down, which resulted in less yards than he appeared to get?
What was up with the refs and spots? It appeared they were having problems. Later in the fourth quarter, one of their spots gave us exactly a first down and made up for the earlier issue in the first quarter.
Still, at the beginning, when it looked like ’Furd had the momentum, I began to think that the game was going to proceed in the manner in which the blowouts at Oregon and vs. $c had…
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is
research."
by Auricursine on Nov 25, 2009 7:35 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Coach Tedford was also upset at the spotting of the ball on a couple of occasions. On the drive on which we eventually punted on the 4th and short in the 4th quarter, I recall JT was noticeably upset during these two plays:
2nd and 6 at CAL 31 Shane Vereen rush for 5 yards to the Cal 36.
3rd and 1 at CAL 36 Timeout CALIFORNIA, clock 11:07.
3rd and 1 at CAL 36 Kevin Riley rush for 1 yard to the Cal 37 for a 1ST down.
It appeared to me (as it did to Coach Tedford) that Vereen actually made the first down on the 2nd down run. At the time, I got the sense (pure speculation) that we burned the timeout because we waited too long for a booth review that never came. And then, on the 3rd down QB sneak, it appeared to me that the refs inexplicably spotted the ball at least a football length behind where they should have (and we barely got the 1st down).
Praise be to Tedford!
by Ohio Bear on Nov 25, 2009 8:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I remember those and you are right.
You know, I’d like to see a system like this put in place.
Manufacture footballs that have sensors in them at the front and back noses of the ball.
Put in place on the field some detection device that shows where the ball is, and sync this up to video, so that in each replay frame, the sensor can tell you where the ball should be placed. Did the ball cross the goal line when there are 2000 pounds of meat blocking anyone’s view? The computer will tell you!
Pipe dream? Sure. But it’s getting to be Christmas time and I’m a dreamer!
by concordtom on Nov 25, 2009 8:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
They’d also need to know when the player was down, which is a more difficult proposition.
by Kai on Nov 25, 2009 10:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Furd was getting home town calls all night long. That’s Pac-10 officiating for you. If we get one of those spots right we probably aren’t even having this discussion.
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by Avinash on Nov 25, 2009 12:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t see any defense for not at least running the ball up the middle on third down before trying a field goal. At least give yourself a chance at getting the first down; be conservative, sure, but at least take the chance. You really can ice the game if you get it.
Frankly, I think people who support the kneel-down call are also engaging in a bit of “outcome bias” — hey, we won, so the call must have been right! Well, chances are that we also would have won by just running a regular play on 3rd down, and maybe it wouldn’t have been such a nail-biter.
by sycasey on Nov 25, 2009 7:55 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
I was not very happy with the call. Vereen up the middle would’ve been what I would’ve done. I do agree that the chance of a disaster is minimal, even though the chance of a touchdown is also minimal from that range.
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by Avinash on Nov 25, 2009 12:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So whats the point then? You’re not going to score with a run from 3rd and long
by BerkeleyChris on Nov 25, 2009 12:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno, I’ve seen it happen before. Maybe a delayed draw, like in the Arizona game where they got a 50+ yard TD run on the Furd defense from 3rd and long.
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by Avinash on Nov 25, 2009 1:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I would’ve called a delayed draw with Vereen too, but I’m saying its like a 5% chance he scores on that play
by BerkeleyChris on Nov 25, 2009 1:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But the delayed draw only works if the defense is playing the pass, right?
"Let me tell you a story. I was a political prisoner for two years. The instant I was released I ran to McDonald's. I had a Big Mac and a Coke.
It was fantastic."
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZqOkeYbB0
by AERose on Nov 25, 2009 1:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Which they probably would be on 3rd and long?
But yeah, gonna have a hard time scoring a TD on a delayed draw near the goal-line
by BerkeleyChris on Nov 25, 2009 1:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The point is that it’s a more than 5% chance of scoring (probably closer to 10-15%) vs. a 0% chance of scoring, with no downside.
by HolmoePhobe on Nov 25, 2009 1:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Worse spot position for the field goal and chance of turnover are the downsides.
by sec119 on Nov 25, 2009 1:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Chance of turnover is practically non-existent, and is definitely less than chance of scoring. I don’t feel qualified to speak to the spot position for the field goal; not sure how big of a factor that is.
by HolmoePhobe on Nov 25, 2009 1:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I believe Tavecchio has struggled with angle kicks before (especially that close in—didn’t he honk one in the Maryland game in 2008?)
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by Avinash on Nov 25, 2009 1:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair, D’amato was kicking wasn’t he? Either way, it’s a gamble.
by sec119 on Nov 25, 2009 1:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yeah, that too. As usual, I blame Alamar for all of this.
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by Avinash on Nov 25, 2009 1:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Lining up to center the FG I can understand and accept the call a little more....
although i STILL disagree.
How about if we had an awesome kicker like UCLA’s Kai Forbath? then what? I would’ve definitely gone for it. Kneeling is always a terrible decision.
by dmo580 on Nov 25, 2009 3:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The probabilities involved are fairly miniscule. In all likelihood running a play would net you no different result than taking a knee, and would give you a worse angle to kick. At that point it just comes down to whether you’re risk-neutral or risk-averse, and up by 3 points I’d rather be risk-averse.
by BerkeleyChris on Nov 25, 2009 4:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I generally agree with your point, but I can’t get too upset about it. The goal was to line up the FG for the kicker. When you run the ball, you can design a run play to go wherever you want, but the truth is it’s going to end up going where it does based on how the defense plays it. You can’t guarantee getting the ball in a good spot for a FG. There’s a reasonable argument to be made that the chances of getting it were small enough, and the increase in FG% large enough from spotting it where you want, that it was the right call.
by Missing Barry on Nov 25, 2009 1:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
In Tedford’s two most controversial decisions of the year—the ultra-aggressive Vereen throw against ASU and the ultra-conservative kneel-down against the ’Furd—the one common factor was total lack of confidence in his kicker(s).
From my fan’s perspective, that’s a lack of confidence I share. But I kind of wish he’d show more faith. That said, both decisions are defendable, and Cal won both games. So who’s complaining?
As for Harbaugh, he had zero timeouts and Cal had done a pretty good job stopping the run, so I don’t see anything wrong with passing the ball at the end. Running the ball had the risk of dramatically shortening the game, and with all due respect, that misguided youth in the video has the brain of, um, a fifth grader.
Going for it on 4th and 8, though, was one of the worst calls I’ve seen in a long time.
Go Bears!
by California Pete on Nov 25, 2009 8:12 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
the one common factor was total lack of confidence in his kicker(s).
And ironically, yet thankfully, the kickers made the kicks each time.
Praise be to Tedford!
by Ohio Bear on Nov 25, 2009 8:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree that it shows a lack of confidence in his kicker.
Regarding ASU, he showed MUCH more confidence that we did. Considering that Tavech had just missed that kick and another one earlier I didnt want him kicking ANY more. But as soon as we got to the 10 or whatever, Tedford went into super conservative mode (save for that one pass attempt) just to set it up for his kicker. It showed a lot of confidence.
Regarding Stanford, you seem to view the centering of the ball as showing a lack of confidence in the kicker. I disagree. Hes just putting his kicker in the best position to succeed. Its the athletes job to execute. Its the coaches job to put the athlete in the best position to succeed. That was what he was doing. If we had the greatest kicker ever, he probably STILL woulda done that.
If anytihng the Stanford one showed a lack of confidence in Riley in the red zone. Understandable.
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by TwistNHook on Nov 25, 2009 8:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And it also showed a lot of confidence that the D could prevent a touchdown.
by sec119 on Nov 25, 2009 10:02 AM PST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
how long did stanford need the game to be? they had first down from the 13 yard line and about 2 minutes. who cares if the clock winds down a bit, if you only need to go thirteen yards and you have toby gerhart? you have all 4 downs, and you can spike the ball if you really need to.
by atomsareenough on Nov 25, 2009 11:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice answers. I hope Tedford shows more faith in Riley next season. I think after that touchdown to put us up 10 he just wanted to run the clock out and get out of there. I felt one more TD would’ve ended the game and he probably left the door open a little too much.
We won, but still by the edge.
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by Avinash on Nov 25, 2009 12:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Conversely, I hope Riley does more to earn Tedford’s faith next season. He’s on his way, but he isn’t there yet. If he can put together some serious redzone game then we’ll have ourselves a nice little quarterback.
"Let me tell you a story. I was a political prisoner for two years. The instant I was released I ran to McDonald's. I had a Big Mac and a Coke.
It was fantastic."
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by AERose on Nov 25, 2009 1:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not for nothing, but ...
That girl is incredibly annoying. Whiny, self absorbed, and obviously someone who is used to getting what she wants. If nothing else, I’m glad Cal won just so she had cause to pout, stamp her precocious feet, and demand to know “why!”
Also, I think I’d like to see a little girl wearing a Cal sweatshirt punch her in the face.
Whose Axe?
OUR AXE!
by SoCal Oski on Nov 25, 2009 8:17 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
(Hurrying off to dress my own daughter in Cal sweatshirt to go yell “Goo Bays” and then punch stanfurd girl in face…)
Praise be to Tedford!
by Ohio Bear on Nov 25, 2009 8:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You obviously don’t have a little daughter that age.
I have to disagree with you.
1) her dad scripted the whole thing up with her. You can see her reading the cue cards.
2) she’s trying to act like a commentator with the vocal inflections. This is not whiny and self absorbed. This is part of growing up and mimicking adults.
3) how can you tell she is used to getting what she wants? Or are you just applying the “rich stanford” rule? That brings us down. Cal ain’t no 2nd place to our cross bay rivals in terms of wealth, buddy. Don’t let that perception get out there.
Leave the kid alone. Pick on the Furd band if you want to continue to charge at red.
by concordtom on Nov 25, 2009 8:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No, pick on the children!!!!
They must be introduced to shame at an early life, so they can understand the missteps their parents have been taking in their upbringing!!!
She is misguided and will be her whole life, until she realizes we provide a better education, and legacy points can only take you so far in life…
Don’t listen to concordtom! Get out there and start bullying children, it is your duty as an American!
Undefeated in Southern California since Oct. 2009...
by CruzinBears on Nov 25, 2009 9:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If someone else has to introduce your child to shame, you’re getting parenting all wrong. For instance, ever since my older daughter announced that she wanted to go SC and be a cheerleader, I have been filling her with shame at her mis-steps in ballet and jazz dancing classes so she will give up and go to Vassar instead.
Actually, if they aren’t rejecting your crazy ideas, then you really are getting it all wrong.
by DC Trojan on Nov 25, 2009 9:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Pick on the Dad
I’ve never seen a more scripted video. Poor girl.
by kencraw on Nov 25, 2009 10:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you mean to tell me that children aren’t their parents’ opportunity to reverse all their frustrations in life by remaking all the decisions they regret – on their children’s behalf?
Whatever next?
by DC Trojan on Nov 25, 2009 10:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You’re right, it’s obvious her father (or possibly mother) forced her to make this video. Instead of picking on the kid, we should be reporting her parents to Child Protective Services.
November 20, 1982 - a date that will live in famy.
by CalBear81 on Nov 25, 2009 11:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, kind of have to agree here. She’s just a kid, man. I thought it was kind of “cute” actually (in a non-pedo sort of way).
by Mister Pie on Nov 25, 2009 12:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously
There was a fail in my sarcasm.
Of course, it’s clear that dad scripted this. Not only her using phrases kids would never use, but her constantly scanning the cue card to remember what to say next.
That being said, a girl in a Cal sweatshirt should still punch her in the face.
Whose Axe?
OUR AXE!
by SoCal Oski on Nov 25, 2009 1:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, violence between children is inherently funny.
by DC Trojan on Nov 25, 2009 1:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
All right...
…I’ll put the Cal sweatshirt back on my daughter again…
Praise be to Tedford!
by Ohio Bear on Nov 25, 2009 4:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Scoreboard!!!!!
agreed, this girl needs a reality check…
Plus a new contract as StanfUrd’s head coach and a shiny new bathroom…
Undefeated in Southern California since Oct. 2009...
by CruzinBears on Nov 25, 2009 8:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Precocious feet? Are they size 15s?
Based solely on some of the kids in my daughter’s second grade class, that kid isn’t even in the ballpark of incredibly annoying. Besides, she’s trying to deal with the fact that Toby Gerhart makes her feel all funny inside – it’s a delicate time in a girl’s life, starting to transfer one’s affection from horses to running backs.
by DC Trojan on Nov 25, 2009 9:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Which is exactly why she needs to drop this nonsense and become a Cal fan…
We have the perfect solution… A workhorse running back named Shane Vereen
Undefeated in Southern California since Oct. 2009...
by CruzinBears on Nov 25, 2009 9:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe invite her to a CGB tailgate?
Undefeated in Southern California since Oct. 2009...
by CruzinBears on Nov 25, 2009 12:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s Twist’s department, not mine.
by DC Trojan on Nov 25, 2009 12:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, come on, sure it’s Stanford, but now you’re really going to judge a 10 year old girl based on less than a minute of youtube video of her?
by Missing Barry on Nov 25, 2009 1:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
Judged and sentenced to a punch in the face by a Cal sweatshirt wearing girl.
No appeals.
Whose Axe?
OUR AXE!
by SoCal Oski on Nov 25, 2009 2:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, you know, life isn’t all sunshine and ice cream.
Whose Axe?
OUR AXE!
by SoCal Oski on Nov 25, 2009 2:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Cal's worst call
Okay, how about this one… Just before the punt you mention, wasn’t that the play where Riley rolls right with an option to pitch to Vareen, keeps it, trips and gains nothing? That was lame. It looked like they had never practiced it during the week. I though they might just do a QB sneak – they only needed a foot or so, why go wide, unless you thought Vareen might suddenly turn a 3rd and 1 into 50 yard TD. But, then, Riley has to pitch the ball!
Punting there was right. Not getting the 1st down previously was the error.
by concordtom on Nov 25, 2009 8:29 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you, concordtom
I didn’t like that call at all. After what Vereen had done on the last 2 plays to pick up 9+ yards, there was no need to get fancy there. That would have been a play for 1st down on the next play (i.e., after Vereen had gotten us our first down).
Praise be to Tedford!
by Ohio Bear on Nov 25, 2009 8:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought it was a QB sneak where he went to the right because he saw nothing forming straight ahead. But I could have been wrong, CBkwit agreed withy our interpretation and I just saw it once from section 225 row a billion.
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by TwistNHook on Nov 25, 2009 8:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, the play calls prior to the ones we question
are the ones to look at.
Go Bears Go
by Rocksanddirt on Nov 25, 2009 9:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Another agreement.
Agreed with the 4th down punt, but why not give the ball to Shane on the preceding 3rd down!
by Oaklandishbear on Nov 25, 2009 9:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ludwig’s playcalling has confused me every now and then.
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by Avinash on Nov 25, 2009 1:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Think how he must be confusing the opposing defense, then!
by BerkeleyChris on Nov 25, 2009 1:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, to clarify:
I agree with the decision to punt on this fourth down. What I did not agree with was the play call on third down. Vereen had been picking up 2+ yards on basically every play, and you have 3rd down and less than a yard. The play call here is to plow it up the middle, not have Riley do that bootleg with the option to pass. Riley did the right thing to pull it down and not force a throw, but I find it hard to believe that we would not have picked up the first down with a Vereen run.
I think first or second down from the 11 would have been the perfect time to use this play. Stanfurd is playing Vereen run all the way, and they have more guys close to the line of scrimmage. A bootleg might get your fullback or tight end open in the flat. If it doesn’t, Riley just eats the ball and runs like he did on the failed third down.
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by CBKWit on Nov 26, 2009 12:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Many people were greatly concerned about this lack of killer instinct. Maybe it is a lack of killer instinct, I don’t know. But, in my belief, the downside of a pass attempt is FAR greater than the downside of any rush attempt. Forcing Stanford to use all 3 time outs limits Stanford’s offensive playcalling on their next drive.
Unless I missed something…we didn’t run the ball, we knelt it. Running the ball would have:
1. Not had the “downside” of a pass attempt
2. Given us some possibility of scoring
3. Still forced Stanford to use a time out
In other words, it would have done everything that kneeling did, but also given us a chance to score. How is that not strictly better than kneeling?
by HolmoePhobe on Nov 25, 2009 9:57 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Increased chance of fumble, including the potential for a disastrous hand off as seen by Cal even earlier in the game. Thats Tedford’s thought process, I would believe.
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by TwistNHook on Nov 25, 2009 9:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Vereen has 147 carries and 0 fumbles this season.
Let’s not forget that Stanford actually came pretty damn close to winning the game – which would not have been the case if we had scored another TD there.
I don’t know what the conversion percentage is for 3rd and 8th, but it’s almost definitely higher than the probability of Vereen fumbling.
by HolmoePhobe on Nov 25, 2009 10:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Firstly, I deleted those extra replies, HolmoePhobe.
Secondly, I agree that the chance of a fumble was small. Tedford, I guess, wanted it to go from 5% or whatever to 0%.
I agree that if we had scored another TD there, it would have been difficult for Cal to lose. By the time the 3rd and 8 rolled around, a safe running play up the middle (which is what you seem to advocate) seemed wildly unlikely to score a TD. It didn’t work on the previous two plays. So, I don’t necessarily think Tedford say it as a choice between Scoring A TD To Ice Game and Take Knee To Potentially Win.
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by TwistNHook on Nov 25, 2009 10:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A TD isn’t the only positive outcome. He could also just get 8 yards and a first down, which would really allow Cal to bleed the clock. Stanford would only get the ball back (if at all) with under a minute to go.
Also, getting 8 yards on a run I wouldn’t call “wildly unlikely,” more like a 15-20% chance. At the very least, you’d have to acknowledge there is at least a chance Vereen gets a first down or a TD there, with the way the line had been blocking and Vereen had been running. I don’t see a good enough reason to not take that chance. A fumble is a very unlikely event, and even if it happens, most likely Stanford just falls on it and they’re still pinned deep in their own territory. Similarly, even if we miss a kick because the ball isn’t centered (and again I’d call this a very unlikely event), Stanford is still stuck inside their own 20 with no timeouts. The only really disastrous scenario is if there’s a fumble or a block that gets run back for significant yardage, and I’d put the chances of that at about 2% or less.
I’ve heard all the arguments for centering the ball. I’d still run one more play on 3rd down, even if it’s a conservative one.
by sycasey on Nov 25, 2009 11:00 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Right…the outcomes would probably have been the same, but one had more potential upside without having more potential downside.
by HolmoePhobe on Nov 25, 2009 11:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I would have run 2 more plays
A field goal was a negative at that point. In fact, when D’Amato lined up to kick, I was rooting for him to miss. Seriuosly. Because I did not want to see Tavecchio kicking to Owusu. Overtime…fine…from what I could tell, the Stanfurd kicker couldn’t kick fg’’s anyway, so a TD for Stanfurd wins it no matter what. Why give them the ball on the 40 or worse when you could force them to drive the whole field if you dont’ score a TD?
by JeromeTheMetronome on Nov 25, 2009 11:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So you’re arguing for 3 pt Cal lead and Stanford ball at the Stanford 8 vs. 6 pt Cal lead and Stanford ball at the Stanford 40. It’s an interesting thought, would like to see the numbers there.
by HolmoePhobe on Nov 25, 2009 11:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
At probably the 40. Possible that we could have stopped the return earlier, more likely to be even worse than the 40. The kickoff returns seemed to average in the 30-40 yard range but I was waiting for the big run-back that would break our back.
by tmoran3020 on Nov 25, 2009 12:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Using the Win Probability Calculator:
http://wp.advancednflstats.com/winprobcalc1.php
Stanford’s win probability, down 3 at their own 8 with about 2:40 remaining is:
Win Probability: 0.14
Expected Points: -0.4
First Down Prob: 0.67
TD Prob: 0.13
FG Prob: 0.08
Down 6 from their own 40:
Win Probability: 0.28
Expected Points: +1.4
First Down Prob: 0.67
TD Prob: 0.22
FG Prob: 0.14
Keeping in mind that this is for NFL games, so the percentages might be a bit different in college . . . looks like their win probability is actually increased there, from 14% to 28%. The stats seem to say that JT should have just run the ball twice, given our lousy kickoff game.
by sycasey on Nov 25, 2009 12:37 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Interesting. Still, I wouldn’t have done that, considering the Furd’s last touchdown drive went, what, 80 yards in 2 minutes? You have to only score 3 points, which seems well within Luck’s abilities.
Although I have no idea how good their field goal kicker is (has he even kicked a field goal the last two weeks?).
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by Avinash on Nov 25, 2009 12:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
On the other hand, if Stanford gets 3 points, they only tie the game. If they get a TD after we kick a FG, they win.
Also, just to give us all a retroactive heart attack, Stanford’s win probability on 1st and 10 from Cal’s 13 with about 1:50 left? 69%
by sycasey on Nov 25, 2009 2:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but if we’re up 3 and the Furd gets 7 points, that means Cal has to go back and score 7 to win, they can’t kick a field goal. If we’re up 6 and the Furd gets 7 points, Cal only needs 3 to win.
That’s thinking waaaay ahead, but you get what I mean. Putting points on the board is rarely a bad thing, since it narrows the decision making of your opponent instead of leaving you with options.
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by Avinash on Nov 25, 2009 2:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Kneeling let us center the ball
We’ve definitely missed our share of FGs which required “weird” angles and hooked the ball wide. That, to me, is probably the main benefit of kneeling and I think possibly what Tedford was thinking. Of course, that’s not to say that everyone else’s points don’t have any merit… I personally would have been okay with running the ball on that third down too, and was actually also slightly miffed to see us be so ultra-conservative.
by Mister Pie on Nov 25, 2009 12:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
1) Tedford choosing to punt on 4th and short rather than going for it—next drive led to a quick Furd TD to cut the lead to 3; we both agree it was an ok call, although we wish
Don’t leave me in suspense, Avi, what do we wish???? I need to know what I wish!
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www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
by TwistNHook on Nov 25, 2009 10:03 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Does this mean we're back on the fire Tedford bandwagon?
I mean, c’mon, this guy never wins the big games! Lets go back to 2 win seasons!
by Bitgod on Nov 25, 2009 10:03 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I, for one, never left said bandwagon!
President Emperor Warlord Of The Sun!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
by TwistNHook on Nov 25, 2009 10:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I drive the bandwagon!
Praise be to Tedford!
by Ohio Bear on Nov 25, 2009 10:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
In Ohio we kind of made it more like a motorized barstool.
Costs assessed against Twist
by CALumbus Bear on Nov 25, 2009 10:36 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
The downside of the field goal: kicking off
I’m sure this has been mentioned elsewhere, but I didn’t see it in this discussion: the big, unique downside of Tedford’s conservative center-the-ball call is that after the field goal we had to kick to the most dangerous kickoff return unit in the country. That makes a huge difference – even if Cal had run the ball (centered or not) on 3rd AND gone for it on 4th down, Stanford would have started their drive inside their 9 yard line. Instead, they started on their 42. That was not unexpected.
Let’s face it: our kickers aren’t amazing. But they’re a lot better at hitting chip shot field goals than they are at getting touchbacks or pinning returners deep. If Tedford’s thought process on 3rd down was “I don’t want to risk Tavech missing from the hash mark” why wasn’t it also “I don’t want to risk Tavech kicking off to the most effective return unit in college football”?
Running twice on 1st and 2nd down didn’t bother me – running out the clock was the smart, if conservative, move. (I would have preferred some kind of misdirection though – an end-around, option run, fake pass draw run, short swing pass that’s the equivalent of a run, etc. But that’s another discussion). I would have also gone for it on 3rd and 4th – and knowing that, maybe would have mixed in a pass in those four downs, probably on 1st when it was least expected. The likely worst-case scenario is that the Cardinal would have had to drive 95+ yards to win or around 72 yards to have a shot at the tie. Plus, with the longer field Stanfurd would have been even more hesitant to run the ball, putting more pressure on Luck – which is what we wanted.
By the way, I don’t really buy the stats about Riley’s red-zone struggles. Sure, he’s 45% inside the 20, with 3 picks and 6 TDs. Or, he’s 54% in the 4th quarter, with 0 picks and 3 TDs. Or, he’s 59% when leading by 1-7 points, 1 pick and 5 TDs. I say he’s more clutch than not (games against OSU excluded).
Finally, I see some inconsistent logic. There’s a number of people saying “it worked, didn’t it?” regarding Tedford’s conservative playcalling. Yet the consensus seems to be that Harbaugh should have run the ball once the Card were on the 12 – and that Stanford might have had a good chance of getting in the endzone if he did. So essentially the only reason Tedford’s bad decision looked good is that Harbaugh made a worse one. Nothing on Stanford’s last drive – the good field position, a couple completions to receivers, one monster play by Gerhart – was unexpected. Except Harbaugh sh*tting the bed.
Who's your Draddy?
by Calfan on Nov 25, 2009 11:04 AM PST reply actions 4 recs
I more or less agree with a lot of this. I have less problem with the field goal attempt, and I think the case could be made either way about 4th and inches, but kneeling instead of running on third down makes no sense to me.
If the answer is, “Vereen was winded and losing effectiveness”, well then why didn’t we let another back take a few snaps, like say CD-J? Covaughn only had 2 carries but he’d gotten 17 yards on them.
by atomsareenough on Nov 25, 2009 11:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
Finally, somebody says exactly the right thing….that scoring a touchdown when starting a drive on the 40 yard line is just as easy as kicking a field goal when starting a drive on your own 9, PLUS:
a) The field goal would only have tied, whereas the touchdown would have won it for Furd
b) in the process, we removed any chance of scoring a TD ourselves which would have effectively ended the game
Tedford lost that game, and then Harbaugh lost it back.
But I give Tedford lots of credit for having Cal ready to play after the OSU game and Jahvid’s injury. But that playcall was insanely bad.
And agreed about CD-J. He’s awesome.
by JeromeTheMetronome on Nov 25, 2009 11:27 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Tedford lost that game
Sigh. I’m hoping this isn’t what you really meant…?
by Missing Barry on Nov 25, 2009 1:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
They squib kicked it away from Owusu didn’t they? I’m guessing he factored in that his defense could stop Luck from passing it into the end zone.
Like I said earlier, I can agree that Tedford’s decision MIGHT have cost us the game, but they left the door wide open for us to win (via the defense and special teams, or even one last two minute drill by Riley and the offense). Harbaugh’s decisions DID cost them the game and shut the door closed.
Email: bearsnecessities@gmail.com
by Avinash on Nov 25, 2009 1:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Cal DID kick away from Owusu!
So the “big Owusu return” point is sorta moot. Tedford acknowledged that their up back made a great play on the squib kick…he grabbed it running full speed and got the yards…something that was probably either coached or practiced.
Man our special teams suck!
by bluehenbear on Nov 25, 2009 3:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not moot - Owusu's impact was significant
Yes, we squibbed to keep the ball away from Owusu, so HE wasn’t able to make a big return. But that’s WHY the up back was able to make the play that he did. Cal essentially chose to accept a mid-field return in exchange for eliminating (nearly) the chance of a TD return. Given that Owusu was back there, it was the lesser of two evils.
The point is that the kickoff situation should have been factored in when deciding to commit to the field goal (centering the ball). On 3rd down, Tedford knew that if he didn’t even try to get the TD and he got what he wanted – a field goal – he was going to squib on the ensuing kickoff and start the Cardinal around their own 40 or better. So he knew, when he decided to have Riley take a knee, that Luck, Gerhart, and Co. were only going to need to go 60 yards with 3 minutes to work with. That’s a whole lot different from going up two scores (if we went for the TD and got it), or making them go 90+ yards for the win (if we went for the TD and didn’t get it or missed the FG).
Who's your Draddy?
by Calfan on Nov 25, 2009 6:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It was actually the greater of two evils
but it’s symptomatic of the whole 4th quarter— panicking about tiny risks of a big play and giving the other team every medium play under the sun instead.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Nov 25, 2009 9:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent discussion, gentlemen. It clearly establishes that Harbaugh’s an idiot, in case we needed any more evidence of that. And it gave me some food for thought on Tedford’s calls.
I wanted Cal to go for that 4th down, but then I usually want Cal to go for it on 4th and short at mid-field. On the other hand, I recognize that I’m just a fan. There are no consequences of any kind to me wanting Cal to go for it on 4th down. If I were the coach and actually had to make these decisions, I suspect I might take a very different view — and I suspect the rest of you might too. I was concerned that we had failed to make it on 3rd and short, and also about the spots the refs were giving. But until reading your post, I hadn’t considered the additional fact hat Vereen might have been running out of gas. I still would have liked Cal to go for it, but I don’t criticize the guy who had to actually make the decision on this one.
I also did not like the kneel down. What’s the harm in at least trying to get the first down or TD in that situation with a running play? Yeah, there could have been a fumble. But even on the kneel-down, there could have been a fumbled snap. It’s impossible to eliminate all risk, so the best you can do is not go with a high-risk play (a pass), and instead go with a relatively low-risk play that at least has a chance of getting a TD or first down.
That said, while there has been a lot of criticism of the play calling in the ASU, Arizona and Stanfurd games — Cal won all three games! Maybe the critics aren’t as smart as they think.
November 20, 1982 - a date that will live in famy.
by CalBear81 on Nov 25, 2009 11:47 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
If Vereen was running out of gas, then A) that means we hadn’t managed him well and had given him too many snaps; and B) why didn’t we use any of our other talented running backs?
That said, while there has been a lot of criticism of the play calling in the ASU, Arizona and Stanfurd games — Cal won all three games! Maybe the critics aren’t as smart as they think.
Doesn’t that line of reasoning also fall into what Avinash called “outcome bias”?
by atomsareenough on Nov 25, 2009 11:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course. But then, to me the point of playing a football game is to win it, not to admire the coaches decision-making abilities. I figure if we win the game, their decisions can’t have been all that bad. I guess that’s my “outcome bias.”
November 20, 1982 - a date that will live in famy.
by CalBear81 on Nov 25, 2009 12:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Coaches can make bad decisions and still win football games. Just because something worked doesn’t mean it was a good decision (or a bad one).
by HolmoePhobe on Nov 25, 2009 12:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Case in point: Les Miles has a national championship.
So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!
by ragnarok on Nov 26, 2009 8:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I like your “good enough” to win attitude. Winning matters to me a lot more than whether a decision would be good or bad in a million statistical trials, and therefore I don’t really pile on the coaching decisions after a victory.
by sec119 on Nov 25, 2009 12:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh. The whole point of the statistics is that they indicate whether or not a decision is likely to lead to victory or not. It’s the only objective way of determining whether a decision made sense.
by HolmoePhobe on Nov 25, 2009 12:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No, it’s not. Say it’s the Super Bowl and it’s 4th and 2 at my 10; a 1st down ends the game. Statistics say I should go for it. Would I be making the right decision?
Statistics are only as valuable when you look at the situation in which you’re applying them and assess those extra variables.
Email: bearsnecessities@gmail.com
by Avinash on Nov 25, 2009 12:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, you would be making the right decision.
Statistics are only as valuable when you look at the situation in which you’re applying them and assess those extra variables.
…what? I have no idea what you’re trying to say here. What else would you decide on besides statistics? Your “gut instinct”?
by HolmoePhobe on Nov 25, 2009 1:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Fear of losing your job
However, that’s an agency problem (the coach acting in his own best interest instead of the team best interest).
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Nov 25, 2009 1:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Haven't been keeping up with TMQ lately
Is this something he’s been talking about?
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Nov 25, 2009 1:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah he’s been going on and on pretty much every week about how coaches punt when they shouldn’t because if the team fails to convert on 4th, the coach gets blamed for going for it/if they punt and the defense can’t get a stop, the players get blamed.
by HolmoePhobe on Nov 25, 2009 1:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, you said “no, it’s not”. So tell me – what other objective method of deciding is there?
by HolmoePhobe on Nov 25, 2009 1:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No, it’s not. Say it’s the Super Bowl and it’s 4th and 2 at my 10; a 1st down ends the game. Statistics say I should go for it. Would I be making the right decision?
Do they? If it’s the end of the 4th quarter and you’re up by less than a score? Those don’t sound like reasonable statistics.
by atomsareenough on Nov 25, 2009 1:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, they do. The chances of getting it are around ~50% (just look at 2 point conversion success rate for a good comparison). If you don’t get it, you still have a chance of stopping the other team. 50% + the chance of stopping them means you should go for it.
by Missing Barry on Nov 25, 2009 1:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
but..
Depending on how much time is left, what the lead is exactly, and the quality of your punting unit, wouldn’t you have to compare it with the punt?
Let’s say you’re up by 4, there’s a minute left, and the chance of stopping them from getting a touchdown is 10%. So, going for it on 4th and 2 should give you a 60% chance of winning. But let’s say if you punt it, they get the ball at their own 40, which (let’s say for the sake of argument) gives them a 25% chance of scoring a touchdown with less than a minute left. So, punting gives you a 75% chance of winning. Now, those may not be the exact numbers, but my point is that just because one option is over 50% doesn’t mean it’s the best option.
by atomsareenough on Nov 25, 2009 2:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Eh good point. Should have thought it out better. Anyways, I’m pretty sure the win probability is higher in the going for it case.
by Missing Barry on Nov 25, 2009 2:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with this view of statistics. And I don’t see how you would design a controlled, testable, and objective experiment for whether Tedford should have ran the ball up the middle in this exact situation. The best you can do is point to similar situations across the NFL, college football, this game, etc.,, while assuming you have as much information as Tedford. And I don’t think the comps to the former are purely objective, nor do I see how the latter would be true, so I’m happy enough saying that we did well enough to win.
by sec119 on Nov 25, 2009 1:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You don’t have to have perfect information to make an educated decision. You make the decision on the best information you have at the time…
by Missing Barry on Nov 25, 2009 1:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, that is the definition of an educated decision, and yes, in real life people have to make educated decisions.
Another way to put this is that I don’t think that there’s enough (objective) information to say that Tedford’s decision wasn’t the best educated decision. So far at least I haven’t heard anything, just a lot of what people think “might” have happened in other situations.
by sec119 on Nov 25, 2009 2:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I do think this one is a lot more complicated to even get to the point where you can make a real educated decision. Lots of possible outcomes, some of them not so normal and easy to figure out, like getting good FG position for the kicker. What effect does that have on FG%? I think at best it’s unclear, so I guess I do actually agree with you that the information to make an educated decision may not have been available.
by Missing Barry on Nov 25, 2009 2:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Or rather, Tedford made AN educated decision, and there’s not a lot of evidence that could show that it was not the best possible educated guess, or that it would lead to a loss more often than not if repeated.
Blah. This doesn’t sound like much fun to discuss though, so feel free to ignore me!
by sec119 on Nov 25, 2009 2:35 PM PST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
The only available evidence suggests that there was no downside to either choice, and more upside to going for it…so I don’t see how you can say it was the best possible educated guess.
by HolmoePhobe on Nov 25, 2009 2:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think what he’s saying is nobody has really established that to be true? I mean, what evidence are we using here? Unless I missed or forgot someones comment, I’m not sure anyone’s really made a good case for this position (not that a good case has been made against it or anything)?
by Missing Barry on Nov 25, 2009 3:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The average success rate when going for it on 3rd and 8 vs. the average fumble rate. You could adjust it to be Cal-offense and Stanford-defense specific, as well as for how often Vereen fumbles, but any way you slice it, I think the former is still higher than the latter.
by HolmoePhobe on Nov 25, 2009 3:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well just answer this question:
Is (the probability that Vereen fumbles + the difference in probability for making a field goal based on centering the ball * probability that Vereen doesn’t center the ball while running) * probability that stanford can drive from the 8 for a field goal * probability that stanford wins in OT > probability that Vereen scores a TD?
I would say no, but I’d be interested if someone fills in those words with estimated numbers
by Kai on Nov 25, 2009 3:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The right side should actually read probability that Vereen scores a TD * probability Stanford wins down 10 with whatever time was left and being kicked off to
by Kai on Nov 25, 2009 3:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The fact that you could write that out means you need to take more shots.
by HolmoePhobe on Nov 25, 2009 4:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I ran some made up numbers and they’re closer than I thought: 9% to 18% in favor of going for it. So close enough to argue about.
by Kai on Nov 25, 2009 4:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Numbers I used
Vereen fumbles 0.01
Increased missing a field goal from not centering 0.1
Vereen doesn’t center the ball 0.5
Stanford drives and scores a field goal from the 8 0.3
Stanford wins in OT 0.5
Vereen scores a TD 0.05
Stanford loses down 10 from kickoff 0.95
Stanford loses down 6 from kickoff 0.6
Stanford loses down 3 from kickoff 0.5
D’Amato misses centered kick from the 8 0.1
by Kai on Nov 25, 2009 4:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You have a lot more faith in our kicking game than I do. A kneeldown guaranteed a spot in the middle of the field and as close to a field goal sure thing you can get. A run up the middle doesn’t and also carries the risk of a fumble. Stanford was keying in on the run, and I doubt Vereen would have made the first down, so I also disagree that the expected value would be as high as you and many others are giving it.
by sec119 on Nov 25, 2009 4:09 PM PST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, there are definitely variables we can’t control for. But when we say (for example) that there was a higher probability of a score than a fumble, that implies all other variables being equal.
by HolmoePhobe on Nov 25, 2009 2:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, a bad decision can be outdone by an even worse decision from an opposing coach… or can be overcome by good play from the team that neutralizes it. Just because it didn’t happen to be determinative, doesn’t make it a good decision necessarily.
by atomsareenough on Nov 25, 2009 12:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I just don’t care whether fans decide the coach made “good” decisions. I care whether we win the game. In all three games where Tedford’s decisions have been criticized, we won. Three-for-three is the only statistic I really care about.
November 20, 1982 - a date that will live in famy.
by CalBear81 on Nov 25, 2009 12:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m glad we won too, don’t get me wrong… but the reason people criticize the decision-making is not because they’re upset we won, but rather because they fear that the same possibly flawed decision-making process which we got away with in these last three wins could lead to unnecessary losses in the future.
by atomsareenough on Nov 25, 2009 1:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No. Obviously I’m a complete moron.
November 20, 1982 - a date that will live in famy.
by CalBear81 on Nov 25, 2009 1:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Just more evidence that CalBear81 is cooler than HolmoePhobe.
President Emperor Warlord Of The Sun!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
by TwistNHook on Nov 25, 2009 6:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If you don't care about the discussion on this thread,
why exactly are you participating in it?
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Nov 25, 2009 1:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Geez, Paul, don’t you get it? We won the game, therefore every single decision Tedford made in the game had to have been the optimal one. Because there’s a direct causal relationship between every decision made and the outcome of the game.
by HolmoePhobe on Nov 25, 2009 1:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
HP, it is always so rewarding to give you an opportunity to get outraged over something!
November 20, 1982 - a date that will live in famy.
by CalBear81 on Nov 25, 2009 1:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I like that CalBear81 is now the jokey jokey one and HolmoePhobe is the outraged one.
President Emperor Warlord Of The Sun!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
by TwistNHook on Nov 25, 2009 6:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Dude I cant believe CalBear81 just clowned you guys. This shit is hilarious.
President Emperor Warlord Of The Sun!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
by TwistNHook on Nov 25, 2009 6:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So that people can be rude to me, of course.
November 20, 1982 - a date that will live in famy.
by CalBear81 on Nov 25, 2009 1:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If that's your definition of rude,
your skin is thinner than an onion’s. It’s a perfectly pertinent question and I hardly used any hostile language.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Nov 25, 2009 1:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Relax. Take a deep breath. Say “ooommm.” It’s all going to be okay.
November 20, 1982 - a date that will live in famy.
by CalBear81 on Nov 25, 2009 1:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
WHY CAL FANS SO SERIOUS???
Email: bearsnecessities@gmail.com
by Avinash on Nov 25, 2009 1:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Because it's the Internet...
<img src=“”http://www.motivatedphotos.com/?id=48969">
"/>
Praise be to Tedford!
by Ohio Bear on Nov 25, 2009 4:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If you want people to be rude to you, just say the word!
President Emperor Warlord Of The Sun!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
by TwistNHook on Nov 25, 2009 6:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
that was the fakest shit ever. i dont even know if fakest is a word. she was obviously reading off something someone else wrote for her. she doesn’t even know what a running back is. she was like “running…..??…back”
no, i wont cut her some slack just because she’s a kid. she’s a furdieee!!
by goldenbayer on Nov 25, 2009 1:07 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I can’t wait until you have kids and you critique them like this. Those are gonna be some fucked up kids
by BerkeleyChris on Nov 25, 2009 1:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
None of these calls were correct
1. Wrong. The 4th and 1 was awful, albeit predictably awful. The overwhelming evidence is that going for it on 4th and 1 is the correct play almost no matter where you are on the field, certainly when you’re outside of the shadow of your own goalposts. How your defense is playing is totally irrelevant, as the same defense will be taking the field no matter where you yield the ball.
2. Wrong. 4th and 8 is a different story, especially when you’re at your own 23. No choice but to kick that one away. Stanford had enough time and timeouts to withstand 4 or 5 Cal plays, so even one first down doesn’t necessarily end it.
3. Wrong. Cal should have passed on the third down in the red zone. There’s some nonzero possibility of a pick-six, but the vast majority of plays end either in an incompletion (minimally worse than the kneeldown), an interception and touchback (minimally worse than the kneeldown*), a sack or scramble with Riley tackled in-bounds (minimally worse than the kneeldown), or a touchdown (wins the game right there).
Actually, if anything, the one alternative to a pass is TWO runs (or a run and a pass). I.e. assuming the first running play puts you to the 6 yard line or so, run another play from scrimmage instead of kicking the field goal.
*Here’s why kicking the field goal is a bad idea: the kickoff team. Cal was basically rolling up and playing dead on kickoffs all game. Stanford got the ball for the final drive on their 44 (which is pathetic; just kick off out of bounds instead of these idiotic pooch kicks if you’re so pansy you can’t bear the thought of a return TD). If you run two plays and stall out, they get the ball at about their 4 yard line. If they pick off a pass for a TB, they get it on their 20. Yes, they only need a field goal to tie, but… first off, the number of yards they need to drive is more if they get it on the 4 and about the same if they get it on the 20, and second, a field goal only ties it while a TD wins the game in all circumstances.
Some of these possibilities result in Stanford having a timeout left. That’s not that big a deal. This is college, not the pros. The clock stops on a first down and there’s way more than enough time for a drive no matter what you do. The odds of Cal running out the clock on Stanford without actually stopping their drive were very low.
The key there is that the game is only significantly altered by one event: a Cal touchdown. Whether Cal turns it over or gets 3 points is fairly minimally relevant, especially in light of the we’re-not-even-trying-anymore kickoff “coverage.”
4. Clearly wrong. Gerhart is the best chance you have to push through for the TD, and it has the added bonus of running out the clock on Cal.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Nov 25, 2009 1:28 PM PST reply actions 3 recs
And now actually reading the thread, I see others agree with me on #3
Might not have spent quite as long on that one if I had realized that…
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Nov 25, 2009 1:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Good thoughts
Regarding (1), I kind of knew Tedford would punt the football. I wish he hadn’t, but again, giving the Furd the ball at that point (there’s a chance it gets stopped, because I doubt the Bears are passing in that situation, which allows the Furd to put 9 in the box or so) was not a risk Tedford wanted to take.
Email: bearsnecessities@gmail.com
by Avinash on Nov 25, 2009 2:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I know it's not a risk he wanted to take
What I don’t understand is why. He’s got basically total job security (let’s be serious, the university in the middle of a budget crisis is not going to fire him and eat a huge loss on his contract). And it’s the wrong call to punt it. That’s not an if. It’s just wrong. The evidence is, like I said, overwhelming.
This is what I don’t get about sports coaches. Are they not aware of this stuff? Normal professionals (and ESPECIALLY normal professionals working for universities) keep up with research in their fields. The research in football says unequivocally that punting on 4th and 1s is dumb. I mean, are they living under a rock or something? How does this information not penetrate?
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Nov 25, 2009 5:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A.) Because institutional inertia is hard to overcome.
B.) Because it’s not intuitive to look to someone outside the world of football to explain how to call plays optimally.
C.) Because, absence of any threat of firing aside, knowing something and being able to act on that knowledge are emphatically not the same thing.
D.) fuck it dude, let’s go bowling.
"Let me tell you a story. I was a political prisoner for two years. The instant I was released I ran to McDonald's. I had a Big Mac and a Coke.
It was fantastic."
-Toyama Koichi, US Presidential candidate from Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZqOkeYbB0
by AERose on Nov 25, 2009 5:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yknow the kick offs is something that Ive seen mentioned here. Its something that I missed and a very good point.
President Emperor Warlord Of The Sun!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
by TwistNHook on Nov 25, 2009 7:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
As Bill Simmons said, statistics can only tell you so much; you have to assess the situation too.
Thanks for the reminder why I don’t read Bill Simmons. As much as I love reading columns about subjects the writers so obviously knows nothing about….
By this logic, Belichick also should have held a loaded pistol to his head on the sideline, spun the chamber and tried to shoot himself like Chris Walken in “The Deer Hunter.” If those 1-in-6 odds came through and he succeeded, we could have said, “Hey, he played the percentages: 83.6666 percent of the time, you don’t die in that situation! You can’t blame him for what happened!”
Sigh. Is it really necessary to insult our intelligence with a paragraph this fucking stupid, Simmons? So instead of an essentially 0 chance of dying, now you’re going to take a 16.67% chance of dying just for the hell of it, and calling that “playing the statistics”? If the alternative was a 20% chance of dying, yes, doing that would be a smart move….
Just a dumb article altogether, shows Simmons lack of understanding of any statistical principals altogether. Glad I avoided reading it the first time.
On to the Big Game decisions:
1 – PaulThomas laid out this case. No need to elaborate. The chance of winning the game is higher if you go for it than if you don’t, and it’s pretty clear cut in such a short yardage situation with such good field position.
2 – God awful call by Harbaugh. Just wow. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. Yardage too long, field position too poor. You don’t make this decision unless you’re at the point in the game where there is no other plausible alternative.
3. Didn’t bother me so much. I would have run the ball, but I don’t think it was really a big deal either way. I see legitimate reasons for both. Actually reading over PaulThomas’ case, maybe passing was the right answer, either way, I don’t think this call was too bad no matter the choice. Overall, I’m indifferent and not going to call it a “bad call”.
4. Again, indifferent, so not a bad call. I’m not going to criticize individual playcalls, these are obviously things the coaches think about and prepare for ahead of time, each play is not independent of other plays….there are just lots of reasons I see for armchair coaches to let this one slide.
by Missing Barry on Nov 25, 2009 2:09 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
That article was retarded. It was basically Simmons saying “when statistics prove me wrong, I ignore them”.
by HolmoePhobe on Nov 25, 2009 2:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I would have thought so too, except for the fact that I agreed with Simmons in this case. Stats or not, I did think Belichick’s decision was way too risky, especially with the way the Pats had bungled that whole series and needed to burn two timeouts just to run four plays.
by sycasey on Nov 25, 2009 2:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
More importantly, the playcall was probably a bad one too. It was entirely dependent on ball position, which on the road will favor the defense. If Riley had thrown a short out to Ross in the slot I imagine something similar might’ve happened, and I’d be steamed at Tedford, Ludwig and the refs equally.
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by Avinash on Nov 25, 2009 2:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
PUNT.
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by Avinash on Nov 25, 2009 2:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Probably Brady to Moss in some variation 10 yards down the field. I DO NOT throw the ball anywhere close to the 1st down marker and leave it in the hands of the refs.
Email: bearsnecessities@gmail.com
by Avinash on Nov 25, 2009 2:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
FAKE PUNT!
President Emperor Warlord Of The Sun!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
by TwistNHook on Nov 25, 2009 7:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If Riley had thrown a short out to Ross he would have dropped it, rendering the whole the point moot.
(OK that’s mean but also true.)
"Let me tell you a story. I was a political prisoner for two years. The instant I was released I ran to McDonald's. I had a Big Mac and a Coke.
It was fantastic."
-Toyama Koichi, US Presidential candidate from Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZqOkeYbB0
by AERose on Nov 25, 2009 2:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Calvin*
All aboard the Jahvid Best rickshaw!
by rollonubears on Nov 25, 2009 11:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
More true per catch, but not by volume!
"Let me tell you a story. I was a political prisoner for two years. The instant I was released I ran to McDonald's. I had a Big Mac and a Coke.
It was fantastic."
-Toyama Koichi, US Presidential candidate from Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZqOkeYbB0
by AERose on Nov 26, 2009 12:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not sure the role risk plays in this decision? You either have a great chance of winning by going for it or punting it. One or the other. There are certainly reasonable arguments for and against certain stats in deciding those probabilities, but I actually did do some research on this and every smart stat/football analyst concluded basically the same thing – at worst, the chances of winning were the same in either case, and at best, the chances of winning were greater by going for it. The only room I see for an evaluation of risk is in terms of Belicheck’s job security (failing by going for it looks bad even if it’s the correct call)…but that just muddles the picture, as the correct decision is to give yourself the highest chance of winning, which is what Belicheck did.
by Missing Barry on Nov 25, 2009 2:35 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
You either have a greater chance of winning by going for it or punting it
by Missing Barry on Nov 25, 2009 2:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Rec’d for doing a better job articulating my thoughts on the matter than I could
by Kai on Nov 25, 2009 2:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I did the same research. Yes, I know that the stats generally said that going for it was either better or about even money. Given the situation at the time, even knowing what “win probability” said, I still would have punted. That’s all I’m saying here.
I’ll give the stats credit, though, for pulling me down from the position of “Dumbest Call EVAR!” to “Okay, I can see his side of it.” It also made me think that perhaps Belichick’s biggest mistake was in burning all of his timeouts to leave the Pats with no chance at a comeback if the Colts happened to score.
by sycasey on Nov 25, 2009 2:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Knowing the stats, you still would have punted. This needs some explanation? What factors would make you choose the outcome that results in a win less often?
by Missing Barry on Nov 25, 2009 2:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s a gut call, simply given the way that series had been run (lots of confusion resulting in two timeouts burned. Just a gut call — sorry if that makes me dumb.
by sycasey on Nov 25, 2009 2:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m just going to theorize your gut is against going for it because we’ve been conditioned by watching coaches not go for it for so long that, intuitively, it seems to be the logical choice. Sometimes it’s hard to learn to stop accepting beliefs you held previously…
by Missing Barry on Nov 25, 2009 3:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I’m not saying so, I’m just throwing a theory out there…
by Missing Barry on Nov 25, 2009 3:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Here’s the thing . . . I generally like the statistical revolution in baseball, and I’m supportive of what is trying to be done with football. I do hope more coaches will start going for it on fourth down, because it’s a better way to play the game. However, I don’t follow the stats on everything; when watching that game, my intuition was screaming that it was a bad idea to try going for it. It wasn’t just about the potential winning % of going for it vs. not going for it; I just didn’t like the way that offensive series had been run (burned timeouts, near-interception on the previous play) and felt like the Pats were going to fail on that try. That’s what I mean by gut instinct; the stats may have been slightly in favor of going for it, but in that moment, my intuition was telling me very forcefully that they shouldn’t.
So while I like to have the stats to help inform a decision, that doesn’t necessarily mean I’d base every single decision on them. We’re humans, not computers.
by sycasey on Nov 25, 2009 9:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s what I mean by gut instinct; the stats may have been slightly in favor of going for it, but in that moment, my intuition was telling me very forcefully that they shouldn’t.
Well, I think you haven’t put two and two together here – and that is: your gut is essentially “playing the stats” – it’s making it’s own decision based on all the variables it’s seeing that it doesn’t think the stats, in that particular situation, favor going for it. This stuff is quantifiable, and can be explained with stats. It’s just that the research done isn’t specific for every situation that will ever occur, so there’s definitely some room for adjustment on the numbers and variables and what not. So what I’m saying is the process your gut is going through is, in fact, the process of trying to determine the percentages, and it is quantifiable (though not quantifiable in the moment a decision needs to be made). So essentially you are still going through the same thought process.
by Missing Barry on Nov 27, 2009 8:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not sure how quantifiable it can really be; what number value would you assign to “Their offensive playcalling has really sucked for the last three plays, so they shouldn’t go for this?”
by sycasey on Nov 27, 2009 11:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think taking that into account for fourth down decision making is helpful at all if you’re the offensive play caller
by Kai on Nov 27, 2009 12:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If your gut says so….
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www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
by TwistNHook on Nov 25, 2009 7:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah – there is really no coherent reason at all for the strong anti-going for it on 4th sentiments in football. I think you can chalk it down mostly to a)inherent conservatism and b)coaches wanting to avoid the blame if it goes wrong.
by HolmoePhobe on Nov 25, 2009 3:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I will say that I generally support going for it on 4th-and-short in most situations, particularly around midfield, though I disagreed with the Belichick decision. The numbers say so, and it makes sense intuitively to me as well.
by sycasey on Nov 25, 2009 3:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If not the stats, what would you decide based on? An inherent dislike of going for it on 4th? That’s irrational.
by HolmoePhobe on Nov 25, 2009 2:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Human Beings Make Irrational Decisions
News at 11.
"Let me tell you a story. I was a political prisoner for two years. The instant I was released I ran to McDonald's. I had a Big Mac and a Coke.
It was fantastic."
-Toyama Koichi, US Presidential candidate from Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZqOkeYbB0
by AERose on Nov 25, 2009 3:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Kind of ironic, but despite the loss I did like Belichicks decision to go for it. I didn’t think Indy could stop them, and if Kevin Faulk had caught the ball cleanly then game over.
by sec119 on Nov 25, 2009 2:40 PM PST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Why did you guys consistently misspell Stanfurd?
Whose Axe?
OUR AXE!
by SoCal Oski on Nov 25, 2009 2:33 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
The biggest reason for a lot of Tedford’s ultra conservative calls have to do with that oregon state loss with Riley. I still think Tedford either lacks the confidence in Riley or doesn’t ever, ever want to put him or any of his players in that kind of situation again (where they HAVE to convert a play in order to win).
Do you remember that game? In case you somehow forgotten (go to the doctor if you did) we WENT FOR THE KILL instead of playing it safe and taking the points, and that decision led to the downward spiral that no one felt the burden of more than Tedford.
Not saying it’s right to be ultra conservative, since I actually disagree with these calls. But I hope people get over the fact that being aggressive somehow results in free touchdowns without any risks. It’s sad to think that this made Tedford’s decision making bias towards the conservative side, but I’m still sure that loss has left a huge impact on how he now manages games.
(For what it’s worth, I think going for 4th down for them was wrong, they shoulda passed instead of giving it to Gerhart since all game we were playing to shut down the run and Luck was finally making plays, Cal shoulda went for it on 4th and extremely short, and we should have run the ball on 3rd down before field goal).
by nickle on Nov 25, 2009 4:48 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
They didn't have to convert a play in order to win
The first Cal screwup was with a 10-point lead. It is virtually by definition the case that you do not have to convert that play to win, because even in the absolute worst case scenario you get the ball back with a lead.
The second Cal screwup was on a play where even if the near-absolute worst (I can’t say literally absolute, because once in a million years an RB fumble is taken for a return touchdown) happened, the other team still needed to drive the length of the field in order to even reach field goal range.
You may be right about the Oregon State game having traumatized Tedford, but… if that’s the case, he needs to get over it, or see a therapist, or something. Over-conservatism has nearly cost Cal several games this season where they had a late lead.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Nov 25, 2009 5:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs



























