Golden Nuggets: Best or Vereen?
by Berkelium97 on Nov 24, 2009 5:00 PM PST
in Golden Nuggets
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PrintIn case you missed it, go here to download the Cal @ Stanford torrent. If you've already downloaded it, keep seeding! Remember the golden rule and try to reach at least a 1.0 ratio.
Another reminder: keep voting for Vereen in ESPN's All-America Player of the Week award!
Jon Wilner wonders an increasingly popular question as of late: is Vereen a more effective running back for this Cal team than Best is?
But after watching two all-Vereen, all-the-time performances, I do wonder if Cal is more effective right now with Vereen than it would be with Best healthy and starting and getting the ball 15-20 times per game.
...
If Cal had a high-precision passing game and could move the ball consistently with five- or seven- or 11-yard passes, maybe I’d feel differently. Then you want the best big-play tailback in the country.But the Bears’ aerial attack is both high-risk and inconsistent. It’s not like Kevin Riley is a completion machine, or his receivers catch everything thrown to them or the offensive line is a pass protection wall of granite.
All of those things happen sometimes, but not nearly enough for Cal to move the ball effectively against quality defenses.
So without a consistent passing game, the Bears need something to help them in the ball-control department. I mean, an inconsistent aerial attack and an all-or-nothing running game is a recipe for trouble against sound defenses.
And Vereen seems like a better fit than Best in the ball-control department. He almost always runs straight ahead and almost always churns out three or four yards between the tackles — and he can bust one for 20 or 30 or 60 once in a while, too.
That’s how you win conference road games in November – not by hitting one or two long runs each game, but by churning out first downs, dominating the ball and overpowering opponents between the tackles.
Vereen gives Cal a better chance to do that then Best.
After the jump, we see why the Holiday, Sun, and Emerald bowls all want Cal, Tedford defends kneeling in midfield to set up the field goal, Montgomery talks zone D and injury updates at yesterday's press conference, Farudo posts his scouting report of tonight's opponent, Jacksonville, and more.
Cal Football
- Emerald Bowl executive director Gary Cavalli has his work cut out for him as he tries to figure out the Pac-10 bowl situation. Despite his preference not to have the same team play twice in a row, he says Cal and Stanford are special exceptions to that rule. Meanwhile, Holiday Bowl executive director Bruce Binkowski might be interested in choosing Cal in the event of a four-way tie for second place. He says "USC is appealing because we've never had them. But we know how Cal can deliver. We'll have to wait and see." Of course, the Sun Bowl would love to have Cal because they're the only Pac-10 team that has never played in that bowl.
- Daily Cal on Tedford's decision to center the ball on third down to set up the field goal. He said "They had to score a touchdown." He continued on, saying "You can always second-guess yourself, but there's still a lot of time left. We could've gotten the ball back and taken it right back."
- Here's an interesting stat, this was only Cal's second win as an underdog since 2003. The first was Oregon 2007.
Cal Basketball
- Farudo posts his scouting report for tonight's opponent, Jacksonville.
- Monty talked about this week's games in his press conference Monday. He said Theo will miss today's game, but his foot MRI "is looking pretty positive." He says Theo's absence makes the offense much easier to guard, which makes things tougher for PC and Randle.
- The Bears worked on interior offense and avoiding blocked shots (after being blocked 20 times in the last two games). They specifically worked on trying to draw contact and freezing up the defender with shot fakes.
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Cal Football 2009: It was the Best of times, It was the Vereen of times.
Cal Football: It could happen!
by CalBandGreat on Nov 24, 2009 5:02 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
New question....
If Best returns for either UW or the bowl game (or both)…
Who ends up with more yards this season?
Their stats are remarkably similar up to this point:
Best carries: 141 yds: 867 avg. 6.1 TDs12
S. Vereen 147 738 5.0 10
Do we still get to see a 1,000 yard rusher this season?
Obviously, health is of top concern for Best, but just something to chew on…
Undefeated in Southern California since Oct. 2009...
Pllllleeaaaasssse holiday bowl, choose us over sc!!!!
i'm here to clean your pool but i don't have a pool *bowchica bowow*
by ch0ster on Nov 24, 2009 5:06 PM PST via mobile reply actions
I’d buy a hotel room if we went to the Holiday Bowl…
You think if we get enough Cal fans to write those types of letter to the Holiday Bowl commitee, we could get the bid over $C? Given we win out, which is by no mean guaranteed (you hear me juju/cfb gods?)
Undefeated in Southern California since Oct. 2009...
well, i’m already getting the feeling the fans are overlooking Washington. Hope the football team isn’t
Physical.
by Thoroughbred on Nov 24, 2009 6:05 PM PST up reply actions
agreed!
I really hope they don’t or else my trip to Seattle will be lot less fun haha
Undefeated in Southern California since Oct. 2009...
by CruzinBears on Nov 24, 2009 10:13 PM PST up reply actions
Holiday Bowl
Sorry ch0ster, there is no way the Holiday will pick us over $C if we end up tied with them; its their dream team. Best we can do is the Sun Bowl if we beat the Huskies (unless something really unlikely happens).
The game between Zona and USC is key. I don’t think it’s too improbable that the Wildcats pull that one out. If so, USC has four losses
Physical.
by Thoroughbred on Nov 24, 2009 6:04 PM PST up reply actions
Didnt that keep us from going to the Rose Bowl?
President Emperor Warlord Of The Sun!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
Let’s not talk about it.
Email: bearsnecessities@gmail.com
by Avinash Kunnath on Nov 24, 2009 6:16 PM PST up reply actions
Nah, it would have given us a ticket to the Rose Bowl if we hadn’t lost to Arizona. Why couldn’t DeSean wear his one-size too small shoes that day?!
Whose domicile? OUR DOMICILE!
Whoa, also identical responses at the same time.
by Tedfordisgod on Nov 24, 2009 6:17 PM PST up reply actions
Nah, we weren’t high enough in the BCS for an at-large bid. Losing to Arizona did keep us out of the Rose Bowl though.
by Tedfordisgod on Nov 24, 2009 6:16 PM PST up reply actions
Best v. Vereen
I think on a team that can open up gaping holes or consistently rely on the passing game, Best is the option. But Vereen is clearly more of a workhorse and better suited to this particular team. Just look at the UCLA game: Vereen had a consistently good game. Best had one epic (again: EPIC) 93-yard TD run, but outside of that he was terrible with a ton of plays where he was stuffed for no gain or caught behind the line of scrimmage. Besides that, there have been a number of games where Best was off the field on key drives due to some sort of physical issue (UCLA and Minnesota for sure, possibly ASU as well… don’t quite remember there).
That having been said, I don’t know that there’d be that much of an issue with playing them both. I think something similar to the way Percy Harvin was used (just a hybrid all-around playmaker) could work. DeBo-Johnson looks like he might be ready for a full back up role, and Best is simply too talented not to have on the field as much as possible.
To be fair, wasn’t Best facing severe dehydration issues against UCLA? I realize that dehydration doesn’t sound like a big problem, but the heat that day was quite severe, making it easy to cramp up.
President Emperor Warlord Of The Sun!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
He honestly is a monster on D, don’t look forward to seeing him again.
by CaliforniaCMB on Nov 25, 2009 2:23 AM PST up reply actions
Surely he’ll go pro at the end of the year? Pretty please?
"Let me tell you a story. I was a political prisoner for two years. The instant I was released I ran to McDonald's. I had a Big Mac and a Coke.
It was fantastic."
-Toyama Koichi, US Presidential candidate from Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZqOkeYbB0
I think half the players were dehydrated or on the way to.
All the fans were dehydrated with their $4 water bottles. Or broke. I went broke. It was HOT.
Vareen or Best
That Vareen is more consistent is obvious now. Someone can do a standard deviation analysis on the two players’ runs and show statistically what we’ve all seen on the field. It’s not a problem to recognize that one is more gifted in the breakaway and another more gifted as an inside pounder (though that’s not what Vareen is). I think the problem is with Tedford and his staff. I mean, shouldn’t they have seen this – that Best is not really a strong inside runner, that he is wildly fantastic in the open field?
My point is – why did they run him inside so much, why not relegate him to someone who gets the ball on the outside. I guess you can run him inside if the O-line is carving holes, but they weren’t.
It hasn’t helped Best’s case in the argument that the Big Game was the OL’s best blocking in the Pac-10 by far (aside from the Wazzu game, which Best of course ate up)
In other words, I think he would’ve broken a few for much bigger gains in the Furd game, based on how much of a push the Bears got for many of those 42 carries.
We’re also forgetting the fact that opponents gameplanned specifically for Best (ie spies and stacking), which is not the case for Vereen
Physical.
by Thoroughbred on Nov 24, 2009 6:29 PM PST up reply actions
I mean, shouldn’t they have seen this – that Best is not really a strong inside runner, that he is wildly fantastic in the open field?
Oh God, make it stop.
"Let me tell you a story. I was a political prisoner for two years. The instant I was released I ran to McDonald's. I had a Big Mac and a Coke.
It was fantastic."
-Toyama Koichi, US Presidential candidate from Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZqOkeYbB0
yeah… i mean, harken back to the Minnesota game.
At least two of his first three TDs were straight up the gut runs… forgetting about the other one (of the first half TDs)
Physical.
by Thoroughbred on Nov 24, 2009 6:32 PM PST up reply actions
Also the idea that Tedford can just magically put Best into the open field on every play, as though you can just chuck Best into another position and he’ll be wide open on every play ftw!
Here’s a hint: a really good way to get Best into the open field is to block the defensive front seven and run Best through the line. Straight lines being the shortest distance between two objects. Geometry bitches!
"Let me tell you a story. I was a political prisoner for two years. The instant I was released I ran to McDonald's. I had a Big Mac and a Coke.
It was fantastic."
-Toyama Koichi, US Presidential candidate from Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZqOkeYbB0
I think Tedford should recruit an O-line that can fold the space-time continuum and create a wormhole Best can run through and emerge in the end zone. Perhaps the SAHPC will bring recruits like that.
Whose domicile? OUR DOMICILE!
Funny. Also, true.
The compensation provided under [Jeff Tedford's] contract is funded exclusively from athletic department revenues and private fundraising and no State or general campus funds are used in this arrangement.
by dballisloose on Nov 24, 2009 9:42 PM PST up reply actions
On what world do you live where coming up with a convincing argument against a position effective in stopping people from adopting that position.
Out of curiosity.
"Let me tell you a story. I was a political prisoner for two years. The instant I was released I ran to McDonald's. I had a Big Mac and a Coke.
It was fantastic."
-Toyama Koichi, US Presidential candidate from Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZqOkeYbB0
I can’t interpret your garbled syntax. Regardless, you keep insisting that Best is better at running inside than outside, but you haven’t offered a single piece of evidence to substantiate that claim.
I miss the old CGB where relevant, coherent football conversation did not exist.
by CaliforniaCMB on Nov 24, 2009 9:35 PM PST up reply actions
194 carries for 1,580 yards and 15 touchdowns. Well that was easy.
"Let me tell you a story. I was a political prisoner for two years. The instant I was released I ran to McDonald's. I had a Big Mac and a Coke.
It was fantastic."
-Toyama Koichi, US Presidential candidate from Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZqOkeYbB0
I think it would be prudent first to define terms. Because people throw these terms around very loosely. “Up the gut.” “Open space.” I think if you do your post as you are describing it, then that will be good. Lets discuss after the LSAT, when is that?
President Emperor Warlord Of The Sun!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
Is there some other famous person named “Vareen” or something. Because I’ve noticed a TON of Cal fans mis-spelling Vereen’s name.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
LoL, don’t know, but Google even asks you if you spelled Vereen wrong when you type it with an A.
by CaliforniaCMB on Nov 25, 2009 2:25 AM PST up reply actions
BASKETBALL VS. JACKSONVILLE
I know it’s not on TV – but I think in the past someone has found some ‘inside the building’ feed?
Maybe that was an internet purchased video feed.
Anyone?
Anyone?
here’s the link, but it hasn’t loaded for me yet. it’s probably $ content
http://all-access.cbssports.com/player.html?code=cal&media=148147
Physical.
by Thoroughbred on Nov 24, 2009 6:30 PM PST up reply actions
dang Jacksonville is pretty small if all of their dudes are listed under 6-6… probably a bunch of quick, bouncy guys
Physical.
by Thoroughbred on Nov 24, 2009 6:34 PM PST up reply actions
Will post a free stream link in the open thread
Email: bearsnecessities@gmail.com
by Avinash Kunnath on Nov 24, 2009 6:34 PM PST up reply actions
it’s the scoreboard feed right?
Physical.
by Thoroughbred on Nov 24, 2009 6:37 PM PST up reply actions
thanks for torrent
I always appreciate these torrents, win or lose – if I can compile stats on O-linemen next year, I’m going to try, unless someone knows a place that’s already been done. So interesting to see who can handle their job and who needs additional coaching support.
One thing I want to point out that shows improved coaching of linebackers is the very first play of the game. Cal LB Bryant Nnabuile (15) playing Stanford TE Fleener (82) on a play action TE pass for a 3 yard gain. This is the kind of garbage that was killing Cal early in the season for 10 – 15 yards, and I even saw it happen at the OSU game, (though part of that appeared to be a problem with Cal DB Brett Johnson). Reason: LB’s were freezing to continue finding a read on the ball and potential receiver once they determine a hand-off did not occur. This meant they were out of position.
In the first play of the Stanford game however, Nnabuile shifts with the TE motion, makes a read that the ball is not in the runner’s hands and then, without looking again for the receiver or ball , turns 160 degrees and hauls ass to the sideline. As he’s arriving, he picks up Fleener, but he didn’t wait to wait to key on the ball from the QB. If he had, there wouldn’t have been a receiver there to pick up anyway, Fleener already would have been past him. Stated simply: “No hand off? Stop watching, immediately turn and SPRINT to my position and make the play if it comes there”. Maybe coaches were having problems adjusting to the 3-4 previously, but linebackers are arriving in the proper position to make plays. Keep it going next season, Gregory/Simmons. Well done, Nnabuile.
oops
I see my excitement was directed at CB Nnabuife, not an LB. Regardless, playing where he did over the tight end in that play, that’s exactly how I want to see LB’s playing quarters do that play.
Sophomore. He returned two blocked punts for touchdowns last year!
"Let me tell you a story. I was a political prisoner for two years. The instant I was released I ran to McDonald's. I had a Big Mac and a Coke.
It was fantastic."
-Toyama Koichi, US Presidential candidate from Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZqOkeYbB0
Nnabuife isn’t a linebacker. But otherwise, cool post!
"Let me tell you a story. I was a political prisoner for two years. The instant I was released I ran to McDonald's. I had a Big Mac and a Coke.
It was fantastic."
-Toyama Koichi, US Presidential candidate from Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZqOkeYbB0
For me there isn’t a problem with whoever the coaches decide to put in. If it’s Vereen, it’s probably a combination of him earning that spot in the past few weeks with letting Best ease back into the game.
If it’s Best, besides his ridiculousness, there’s a reason why he was our starter over Vereen. For all the haters out there who were laughing when the coaching staff was saying there isn’t a drop off in our backs earlier this season when Vereen was struggling just a bit with his limited carries…I think THEY all knew how capable Vereen is.
They’re totally different runners. The key will be how to utilize BOTH of their skill sets (along with executing our passing game) and putting it in our gameplan like we’ve done throughout the years with our two back system. Also, lets not forget the return of MSG. His return has been the catalyst behind our oline stepping up these past weeks (credit to the oline too please!).
My vote goes to Best though. Going for 4 yards every down like we can with Vereen is demoralizing. But nothing like a 80 yard touchdown because you couldn’t close a gap on defense for 0.5 seconds. That’s demoralizing. Best on the field with an efficient passing game … I don’t know what can stop us from running up the score like the 07 days.
Behind all this, Isi should be pleading for one of the sweeps in the crazy formation to go to him. I think it went to him once or twice in the 20+ snaps we’ve run.
And for what it’s worth, I’ve never seen a sportswriter as wrong as Wilner has been all year. Not saying he’s bad because of it, but man, take his predictions, bet against it all year and you’d probably have enough money to buy a permanent seat in memorial stadium.
Question: Does having just one RB make you a better team than switching between two RBs?
Statistics aside, my gut is telling me that it might be more effective to have a single RB who gets 30-40 carries a game, than to have two RBs who each get 15-20 carries a game. Continuity, rhythm, confidence, etc….might be reasons why this could be true. Any thoughts?
The compensation provided under [Jeff Tedford's] contract is funded exclusively from athletic department revenues and private fundraising and no State or general campus funds are used in this arrangement.
My feeling is actually two RB’s, assuming there’s no dropoff. Just being able to share the workload, have fresh legs, and allowing you to run plays that utilize their style of running. Most basic types I’m thinking of is a ‘normal’ back and a speed back (open field reggie bush style), or a ‘normal’ back and a complete bruiser (lendale white).
I don’t think this is an easy one to answer though.
Many years Cal’s backup running back has had more yards per attempt than the starter:
2003: Echemandu ran for 5.0 ypa, while JJ had 5.7
2004: JJ ran for 7.0 ypa while Marshawn had 8.8
2005: Marshawn ran for 6.4 ypa while Forsett had 7.6
2007:Forsett ran for 5.1 ypa while Best had 7.6
I don’t know if this is because the defense relaxes against the run when the starter leaves the field, or if a fresh pair of legs gives Cal an advantage against a worn down defense, or a combination. But clearly having two strong runners has been a big advantage for Cal to have. Few teams sport even one running back with numbers you see up there. The worst ypa is Echemandu with 5.0! Those numbers are CRAZY
The #1 greatest threat to America: BEARS
by norcalnick on Nov 24, 2009 10:53 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
the rb that makes plays stays...
seems like Tedford/Ludwig have the luxury of plugging in whatever it is they need depending on what they see out of the O-line, the receivers, Riley and the opposing defense…
Seems to me that we’re better out of the single-wing (WC) w/ Vereen as he reads the zone blocking more patiently than Best. When that began working against Stanford, it was after Riley had the typical dropped passes to the side-line, and the defense wasn’tt exactly respecting the passing game— kind of time to grind, and wow did that ever work!
But, the game is beautiful like that. Once they had to respect Vereen, the underneath stuff began to open up for Lageman and Miller.
What Best and Riley have been lacking all year has been a consistent passing attack— as mentioned. You can kind of see how it might all come together if they use Vereen like they did.
Against Oregon, the direct snaps went to Best. I think it’s safe to say now, that that may have been a mistake. But, it really boils down to the O-line and receivers making plays and IMO, they were the weak link this season, not Riley (although at times he was complete garbage, too— but really pretty infrequently). Oh, what might have been if MSG and Boateng had stayed healthy all year… or if the coaches knew HOW to use direct snaps to Vereen like they did against Furd (ie: frequently).
"He's so fast, he can turn off the lights and be in bed before it gets dark!" -- Lee Corso on Jahvid Best in NCAA 10.
I think both best and vereen
do a fine job running, but that both don’t give it on the fly sweep fake enough. wether that’s by design or due to the read of the defense, i don’t know.
I also like setting it up in regular proset, and having Riley go in motion.
Go Bears Go
by Rocksanddirt on Nov 25, 2009 9:23 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
agree on the fly sweep hand off...
there were some “automatic” TD’s waiting for Isi against Furd if they gave him the rock. Play it back and you’ll see what I mean.
"He's so fast, he can turn off the lights and be in bed before it gets dark!" -- Lee Corso on Jahvid Best in NCAA 10.
To what purpose?
"Let me tell you a story. I was a political prisoner for two years. The instant I was released I ran to McDonald's. I had a Big Mac and a Coke.
It was fantastic."
-Toyama Koichi, US Presidential candidate from Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZqOkeYbB0
Keeps defense honest. They would not know who gets the ball. Both seems like good blocking RB’s and you good always split them out wide.
In what formation, though? Split backs, under center or in the shotgun? Some kind of pistol variant?
Why have one of them block when you can put a fullback or a tight end in? Why split one of them out wide if you can put a receiver on the field?
What kind of plays would you run with two running backs in the backfield?
"Let me tell you a story. I was a political prisoner for two years. The instant I was released I ran to McDonald's. I had a Big Mac and a Coke.
It was fantastic."
-Toyama Koichi, US Presidential candidate from Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZqOkeYbB0
I remember you guys talking about Vereen being better at fighting for that extra yard.
I say that alone is enough for me to go with Vereen. I don’t think you will expect a lot of explosive TD runs from him, but consistency to me is more critical. I can’t stand watching Best get completely shut down as he just runs up the middle and gets stuffed. I dunno. I feel that when Best is on fire, it’s really awesome. The stuff he does… wow. Unspeakable, but at the same time, it’s like Good Riley vs Bad Riley. Bad Riley is not Bad Rodgers. It’s Riley bordering Ayoob. The contrast is just too much that it’s sometimes painful to watch. Best suffers from that too sometimes. I know a lot of it is our O-Line, but at the same time, I’d rather have consistency.
I know Best’s speed is untouched, but while DeSean Jackson wasn’t as fast, he had a few more jukes and other instincts to get him to evade and get those extra yards. I like that more than raw speed.
Desean Jackson wasn’t a running back. hth.
"Let me tell you a story. I was a political prisoner for two years. The instant I was released I ran to McDonald's. I had a Big Mac and a Coke.
It was fantastic."
-Toyama Koichi, US Presidential candidate from Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZqOkeYbB0
I say that alone is enough for me to go with Vereen. I don’t think you will expect a lot of explosive TD runs from him, but consistency to me is more critical. I can’t stand watching Best get completely shut down as he just runs up the middle and gets stuffed. I dunno. I feel that when Best is on fire, it’s really awesome. The stuff he does… wow. Unspeakable, but at the same time, it’s like Good Riley vs Bad Riley. Bad Riley is not Bad Rodgers. It’s Riley bordering Ayoob. The contrast is just too much that it’s sometimes painful to watch. Best suffers from that too sometimes. I know a lot of it is our O-Line, but at the same time, I’d rather have consistency.
I know Best’s speed is untouched, but while DeSean Jackson wasn’t as fast, he had a few more jukes and other instincts to get him to evade and get those extra yards. I like that more than raw speed.
I agreed with your first post here, but disagreed with this one.
President Emperor Warlord Of The Sun!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
by TwistNHook on Nov 25, 2009 11:18 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
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| Fresno St. | Sat 09/03 | W 36 - 21 |
@
Colorado
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| Presbyterian | Sat 09/17 | W 63 - 12 |
|
@
Washington
|
Sat 09/24 | L 23 - 31 |
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@
Oregon
|
Thu 10/06 | L 15 - 43 |
|
USC
|
Thu 10/13 | L 9 - 30 |
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|
Washington St.
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Oregon St.
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Pacific-12 Conference Standings
(updated 1.2.2012 at 11:12 PM PST)
| North | Conf | Overall | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|
| W | L | W | L | |
|
Oregon Ducks
|
8 | 1 | 12 | 2 |
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Stanford Cardinal
|
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California Golden Bears
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|
Washington St. Cougars
|
2 | 7 | 4 | 8 |
| South | Conf | Overall | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|
| W | L | W | L | |
|
USC Trojans
|
7 | 2 | 10 | 2 |
|
UCLA Bruins
|
5 | 4 | 6 | 8 |
|
Utah Utes
|
4 | 5 | 8 | 5 |
|
Arizona St. Sun Devils
|
4 | 5 | 6 | 7 |
|
Arizona Wildcats
|
2 | 7 | 4 | 8 |
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Colorado Buffaloes
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