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Do Fans Have Any Insight That Coaches Should Hear?

One of my favorite (and possibly idiotic) things to do after a game is visit team message boards to gauge the emotions of a fanbase. You can often tell pretty quickly what the mood is. With USC fans its rosy optimism, with Florida fans it's unbridled arrogance, with Oklahoma fans its Boomer Sooner retardation.

With Cal fans, the mood of the diehards is generally dour, win or lose.

Sure, there will always be Kool-aid "In Tedford we Trust" posts, but it's often covered by a ring of moody pessimism and Trojan envy (literally and figuratively). Like Red Sox fans, the attitude will only ebb away with their grand prize, a Rose Bowl berth. Until then you'll always see reasonable football fans contending with the so-called "Old Blues" for the theme of Cal fandom.

 

Star-divide

Sometimes you'll get a reasoned argument, sometimes you'll get a call for half the coaching staff to be fired. Doesn't matter who they replace them with, just get 'em outta here! You lose, get out! With that in mind, let's cautiously examine the mood a common message board fan exudes after a game.

Here is an example of a fairly good critical post. It might have some flaws, but it contains observations with only minimal biases into player strengths and weaknesses. Solid post with fair observations.  Here's another post that analyzes the psychology of Kevin Riley; not perfect, but fairly reasonable.

Funny that the first poster would then start another thread suggesting Tedford is a choker because he's gone 2-4 in OOC road games. That's probably a little better than Mike Riley, who's gone East and been outscored 2-400 or something awesome like that. I guess you can't have objectivity everywhere.

And indeed, not everyone can be like that. Here is Von Clausewitz, back from the dead, lecturing on leadership.

As for the others, I still don't see it. We have tremendous talent... The difference is that they need to get each other fired up. I think its easier to do when you're at home. We have considerably greater pride at home than at away games. But, at this away game, when Maryland would move the ball or score, we just took the "poke in the eye" and it appears to me that no one took it personally. The only person who I thought took it personally and broadcast it to everyone around him was Kevin (which, thank God, if you had to pick one, at least its the right guy). We need that on the O-Line, in the D-Line and the secondary.

To contrast, I watched the USC/Ohio State game last night, and saw leadership on both teams. People firing each other up on the sidelines in the huddle, etc. The big teams have a brotherhood... a sense that "WE" aren't going to let our school down. They motivate each other and are all the stronger for it. When the game isn't going their way, they immediately get in each other's grills and correct the situation... or die trying. That's pride. That's greatness.

Funny. I thought greatness in college football was measured by having top five recruiting classes every year, having NFL caliber talent on both sides of the ball, and being supported by supremely confident fans with a tradition of seven national championships and 37 Pac-10 titles, even casually winning them on an off-year like last year.

But sure, let's give Petie the benefit of the doubt. He doesn't do things like lose to his rival with the national championship game on the line or lose to Stanford at home. That's what leadership's all about, right?"

This guy presents a "rational, compelling" argument.

Until Tedford comes to the realization that championships are won by teams with strong defenses we will remain at the current level. Every year Tedford attempts the same thing: use a high octane offense to compensate for a sorry excuse of a defense. It usually works, as shown by Cal going to a post-season bowl the last 5 years. But what happens when the offense struggles? Simple we usually loose.

Interesting. So when a team struggles offensively, they usually lose? What a novel concept; that never happens with other teams. UCLA or Oregon State produce pretty good defenses every year and they've been at about the same level as us the past decade (But they play real men defense damnit!).  And apparently he thinks that the the 2004 team (solid around the board, top 5 rushing defense in the country) and 2005 teams (top 30 in most major categories) were aberrations.

And what would a message board quote factory be without the obligatory "FIRE HIS ASS!" post? The guy in this thread was especially impassioned.

just finished watching usc on slingbox here in italy. the coaches should be foreced to watch the usc game. granted the talent is there (obviously) but the aggresiveness is what is sorely lacking on cal's part. gregory is such an idiot............since he's been here how many mediocre q.b.'s has he turned into gamebreakers with his stupid zone defense...no pressure on the passer.....how many third and longs have been converted.........how long will tedford put up with this......i am really pissed !!!!!

Interesting. Which mediocre quarterbacks have we turned into "gamebreakers" before yesterday? Alex Brink? Tavita Pritchard? Sean Canfield? Yeah, they broke out for craaazy numbers on us. Clearly we can't credit Chris Turner for a great game, shake his hand, and move along. And as for our "non-pass rush", I guess those four sacks by our defense didn't count, or the several other times we knocked Turner to the ground and he still made an insane throw and completion. Revisionism is fun.

And let's not overlook how Cal fans envy USC's smash-mouth D even while they run the EXACT SAME DEFENSE AS GREGORY.

Anyway, my point here isn't to bash message board participants (even I end up there sometimes, a habit that is taking years off of my life), whose volcanic passions are humorous and exhaustive. It's to discuss how much fans should really second guess coaching decisions or strategies. Hydrotech elucidated this concern earlier, and it feels like a pertinent topic after Saturday.

Shoot, honestly, I think there are very few of us, if even not even any of us, that can actually critique the coaches. I mean honestly. Do any of us really think we know enough about football to throw out pointers to Tedford and any of his positional coaches? I can’t speak for others but I don’t think I can. Because of that, I’m not one to usually throw out the "we got out-coached" argument since I myself defer to the coaches about 95% of the time. Certainly, the coaches aren’t always right but certainly they know more than me, and are more likely to be right than I would be.

When does criticism of a coaching staff border on unreasonable? Where do we straddle the line between addressing general concerns and armchair coaching?  Or should we be reasoned and dispassionate in our judgment and expectations of our football team? Or do we need to let it all ride out?

The opinions expressed in a FanPost are, in every way, reflective of the opinions of every California Golden Blogs Marshawnthusiast. Moreover, they are reflective of every employee of SBNation, including Tyler "Blez" Bleszinski.

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It is difficult to criticize the coaching decisions, because we lack perfect knowledge.

But that certainly won’t stop us!

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Sep 15, 2008 7:57 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Gotta love fans

Like everyone else, I’m guilty of sometimes questioning the coache’s mind. Last year’s blind dedication to Nasty Nate comes to mind as a perfect example where I thought maybe Tedford’s decision making was suspect. And even during the Maryland game I wondered (some may say hypocritically) whether it might not be a good idea to yank Riley in the 3rd and put in Nate.

But I do tend to stop myself from ever thinking I know better. Tedford is the Head Coach and pulls all that salary for the same reason I am not (and don’t). He knows the game, the players, and the system. I may wonder at his choices, but I do have confidence in him.

The truth is, this is a young team and some fans got a bit overly seduced by 66 – 3. That was a one-night stand, not a long term thing. We had a great day, managed to catch that hotty stripper on the right evening, and had some mad sex with her. But in the morning she went back to her tattooed boyfriend and we were left to Internet porn as we wonder why she won’t return our calls.

Woah, that was a weird simile. But it works. This is a good team, but it’s going to be inconsistent as they get used to each other and the realities of the games. That’s fine. Wondering why coaches do some things some ways is also fine. But damn if some folks don’t just get carried away!

Go Bears!

by SoCal Oski on Sep 15, 2008 8:17 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Whoa, that WSU game was kinda kinky.

by joffle on Sep 15, 2008 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good post...

Tedford is God brought up a good point in another thread. I don’t remember where it is so I’m probably going to butcher his point but I think it was something like fans could critique some of the more layman type of stuff such as run/pass mix, etc. Certainly, it doesn’t take extensive knowledge to say something like “we needed to run more” or “we needed to pass more on 1st down” or whatever. Certainly we could all probably make that critique. But I think that’s just about where the buck stops for 95% of us. I mean, okay, we should have passed more early on in the game, but what types of passes do we call? Which areas of the field do we attack? That’s an area that most of us probably lack extensive knowledge to say hey “call up this play so we can take advantage of Maryland’s defense.”

As I was watching football last Saturday, the commentators were talking about how after losses, one of the coaches would always get tons of mail or email from fans saying what he was doing wrong and what he needed to do correctly. So that coach (I don’t remember who) said that any fan could stop by his office and if that fan could prove he knew more about football than the coach did, the coach would hire that fan as a coach on the team. Needless to say, no fans were hired whether it was because nobody showed up or nobody had more knowledge than the head coach.

One more thought. I wish people would be more precise when they supposedly think “we got outcoached.” We hear the “we got outcoached” critique sooo much as fans, but the critique stops there. What areas were we outcoached in? Offense or defense? But most importantly, HOW were we outchoached? Did we not adjust our DL alignment to better stop Maryland’s run? Did we not drop the SS down into the box? Were we showing our defense too early pre-snap? I mean, fans love to throw out the “we got outcoached” critique but fans themselves rarely even offer any explanation as to HOW we got outcoached and WHAT we can do to be better.

www.californiagoldenblogs.com

by HydroTech on Sep 15, 2008 9:54 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

I heard we threw too deep too early. Or was it not deep enough too early? I forget.

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Sep 15, 2008 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not enough volley serves.

by sec119 on Sep 15, 2008 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

But man did Best get spiked!

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Sep 15, 2008 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

exactly

nice posts all around.

My general logic about criticizing Gregory is this…if he didn’t get fired after last season, it just isn’t going to happen. Why worry about it?

He has made a legitimate departure with the 3-4, and from what I have seen through three games, this defense is more tolerable the the bend don’t break. Yes, I think staying aggressive helps – my impression is that USC takes big risks in big situations, whereas Gregory seemingly has a tendency to play it safe. But honestly, outside of that I am completely unqualified to critique defenses beyond, “Maybe you should stop giving up so many touchdowns.”

I do think that there is a place for criticism of coaches by fans – otherwise coaches would never get fired and they would never get big raises. But 95% of it boils down to…you should keep winning or you should lose less.

by Tedfordisgod on Sep 15, 2008 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why do you think Gregory should be fired? His defense has had a few clunkers, but they haven’t cost us games. Turnovers have.

by BearsNecessity on Sep 15, 2008 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I mean, of all the meaningful games, I can only think of three where defensive lapses rather than offensive lapses cost the team.

Tennessee ’06
USC ’07
Washington ’07
Maryland ’08

And even in Maryland the offensive line was just as bad as the defensive line. Performances under Gregory have been fine, if not great.

by BearsNecessity on Sep 15, 2008 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not to defend that which I just said isn't worth defending

Hear are a few more examples
Oregon State ’07 (no pressure on Canfield.)
UCLA ’07 (142 yards to Khalil Bell, 161 yards for Pat Cowan)
Texas Tech ’04 (seriously, how did you leave this off a list?)
Arizona ’03 (allowing 500 yards passing to a dead team)

Equally to blame
Stanford ’07

That is five games last year (out of 6 losses) that the defense cost us. They nearly cost us the Air Force game. I actually wouldn’t have USC ’07 on the list, but that is just me (that one and ASU are clearly all on Longshore).

The main problem is not the games we have won or lose, but…
(1) The philosophy behind the bend don’t break
(2) Early on in his time, the constant exploitation of our DBs for big plays
(3) Since 2004 (Riddle) the complete lack of a pass rush presence (Zach Follett is working to correct that – but that was the reason for the 3-4)
(4) Inability to adapt – see the spread against Texas Tech or the option against Air Force.

Add to that the games above, and it isn’t too great.

I will give Gregory credit for two masterful gameplans – Oregon ‘07 and USC ’04. Those are the two best offenses in the Pac-10 over the last five years, and Gregory’s defenses played extraordinarily well on those days. In fact, they were the only team to ever stop those offenses at all (excluding post-Dixon Oregon games last season). Though, it should be noted that in both games the offenses did figure us out by the fourth quarter, and looked unstoppable.

I actually thought the defense didn’t do that poorly Saturday relative to the offense. The early deficit was largely created by the INT. They did eventually buckle down and play OK. The late two play TD was pretty bad though – even if it didnt really change the final margin.

by Tedfordisgod on Sep 15, 2008 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oregon State ’07
We turned the ball over three times to Oregon State, and the defense allowed a TD and a field goal. We were stopped at the goaline on 4th and goal once. The offense was just as culpable. And our special teams was iffy.

UCLA ’07
The defense forced two turnovers. The offense proceeded to score zero points with them, in fact turning over the ball back to them on one possession. Also, the run game was dead that day.

Arizona ’03
By all accounts, that defense was not very good.

I can go back through the records, but other than maybe Texas Tech (we forget how much Rodgers struggled without Lyman and MacArthur) I can’t see a game which Cal’s pass rush was the main reason to blame for our team’s defeat.

by BearsNecessity on Sep 15, 2008 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice, HydroTech. Do Fans Have Any Insight That Coaches Should Hear? Nope. If fans think they do, then they are actually saying that the coaches are inept. Why would/should anyone who is trained to do a job listen to those clearly on the outside of the situation who do their analysis once a week while drinking beer with friends? I cringe when Sandy Barbour is approached at functions by Old Blues with simple solutions and advice about the team or coaching staff. Myself, I prefer to talk about what happened and what might happen next rather than pretend that I can coach the team from section I row 43 seat whatever.

by zoonews on Sep 15, 2008 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Have to agree with this assessment

Coaches don’t get outcoached. Players get outplayed. The game was not decided by the calls we made but rather by the motivation they gave the players before the game. Most of the Cal players looked a little overwhelmed to begin the game.

by BearsNecessity on Sep 16, 2008 5:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That might be a genuine coaching issue, since coaches are probably responsible for psychological motivation too, it might not be. It’s an interesting topic.

by BearsNecessity on Sep 16, 2008 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, I guess that depends on what one means by getting “out coached.” I think it means more Xs and Os whereas some people seem to think that includes more player motivation. Now, I do agree that coaches are responsible for player motivation, but I personally, when I hear someone say “outcoached,” I interpret that to mean more Xs and Os rather than player motivation.

www.californiagoldenblogs.com

by HydroTech on Sep 16, 2008 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s just a fact that there are not that many football geniuses (if any). Not Tedford, not Carroll, not Bellotti. Their strength is in recruiting talent and making it all fit together into a unit, being oversees rather than straight play-callers. Can’t think of many coaches in the Pac-10 that would qualify for MENSA if they try.

Well, except for that Beaver defensive coordinator. That dude’s a madman.

by BearsNecessity on Sep 16, 2008 6:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

More often than not, I would say 80% of time or more, coaches don’t get out-coached but players get outplayed.

www.californiagoldenblogs.com

by HydroTech on Sep 16, 2008 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And this is why USC wins 85 percent of their games. Better players all around the board rarely get outplayed, and only by the smallest of margins.

by BearsNecessity on Sep 16, 2008 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the summary!

I don’t read the message boards, mainly because I’m already far too addicted to the comments section here. But I do appreciate the alternative views. Would hate to have the blog just be the same few fans reinforcing the same ideas.

by AndBears on Sep 15, 2008 10:53 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Twist did you read that? Someone’s addicted to the comments section!! Better the comments section here than Quack!!

It’s times like this I wish they’d never discovered CougCenterium.

by Maharg on Sep 15, 2008 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, I guess we are world famous now.

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Sep 15, 2008 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The only people addicted to the comments section on my site appear to be message board posters and flaming hipsters. So I have that going for me. WOOO!

by BearsNecessity on Sep 15, 2008 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

I’ve noticed you had a large surge in flaming hipsters lately.

www.californiagoldenblogs.com

by HydroTech on Sep 15, 2008 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Flaming hipsters?

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Sep 15, 2008 10:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Def. of flaming hipsters=Picture of Maharg and Twist, holding hands and singing ballads.

by BearsNecessity on Sep 15, 2008 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Maharg is a hipster? No self-respecting hipster would EVER tuck in his jersey. Or wear basketball shorts!

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Sep 15, 2008 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be fair though, Twist has been trying to hold my hand for a while now. And he won’t quit with the ballads.

It’s times like this I wish they’d never discovered CougCenterium.

by Maharg on Sep 16, 2008 8:05 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Canterbury would be saddened.

by BearsNecessity on Sep 16, 2008 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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