California Golden Blogs: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Around SBN: Kentucky Wildcats 66, Alabama Crimson Tide, 55: Postmortem

Looking Back at USC: Illegal formation? & Penalties

I see fellow Cal blogger SDGldnBear has beaten me to the punch, nevertheless, here's my take...

We all know what this post is going to talk about.  So let's just jump right in.

The play was first called an "ineligible receiver down field."  Later after the game, ABC news said the refs clarified it as an "illegal formation."  I tended to agree with the call upon first thought.  But now that I look at the play more and more, I think Pete Carroll might have convinced the refs that it was an illegal formation when the refs weren't going to call it.

A1_medium

So here's the play (above).  Cal needs at least seven men on the line of scrimmage (LOS).  I'm pretty sure you can have more than seven men on the LOS.  This is probably a question for Ragnarok to answer since he's the rules guru around here.  Are there at least seven men on the LOS? 

Well, we'll assume all the five offensive linemen are on the LOS.  Technically they can be flagged for not lining up on the LOS.  I've seen it happen like once in the 8 years or so that I've been watching football.  But we'll just assume all the OL guys are on the LOS. 

So that means we need two other players on the LOS.  Specifically, one of those players needs to be Tucker on the bottom of the screen, and either Ross or Boateng at the top of the screen.  Ross and Boateng both can't be on the LOS otherwise Ross would be covered up and when Ross heads downfield he'd be an ineligible receiver down field.  So it must be either Ross or Boateng but not both.

Is Tucker on the LOS?  It appears so.  He could probably be up a few more inches, but for the most part he seems to be on the LOS.  If you notice, Tucker's front foot is on the same yardline (the 28 yardline) as Cal's right tackle's front foot and body.  Thus, it truly does seem like Tucker is on the LOS. 

Is Boateng or Ross on the LOS?  First off, Ross is in the slot, and Boateng is on the outside.  Ross, relative to Boateng, looks to be off the LOS, and Boateng looks to be on the LOS.  But if you look at Ross' front foot, it's on the same yardline as Tucker's front foot (the 28 yardline).  So Ross certainly seems to be on  the LOS.  That makes Boateng like really on the LOS.

Star-divide

If Tucker, Ross, and Boateng were all really on the LOS, then the penalty would be an ineligible receiver down field (because of Ross).  That's what the refs called it originally, but then why did they later clarify the play and say it was an "illegal formation"? 

So because of the fact that the refs clarified the play later on to say it was an illegal formation, that means Cal didn't have at least 7 men on the LOS.  Meaning that between Boateng, Ross, and Tucker, only up to one of them was on the LOS although potentially none of them were on the LOS.

So who was not on the LOS?  

A9_medium

Prior to the play, Tucker can be seen on TV checking his alignment with the line judge to his right (shown in the picture above).  Tucker seems satisfied with the ref's signal (not shown) affirming that Tucker is on the LOS.  So if Tucker is on the LOS, then he's the 6th man on the LOS, and for the "illegal formation" penalty to hold true, that means both Ross and Boateng must have been off the LOS.  If one (but not both) of Boateng or Ross were on the LOS, then Cal would have had seven men on the LOS, and the play is valid.  

But as I already pointed out in the first photo, Ross is on the same yardline as Tucker.  So if Tucker is theoretically on the LOS, then so must Ross.  But if Ross is on the LOS, then so is Boateng.  Meaning, Cal had eight men on the LOS, which satisfies the requirement that the offense have at least seven men on the LOS but would draw an "ineligible receiver downfield" penalty because Boateng covered up Ross and thus when Ross released down field he'd be the ineligible receiver down field.

But the refs clarified the play and said it was an "illegal formation!" 

This doesn't make sense.

So for the play to truly be an "illegal formation," either the refs thought:

(1) Tucker wasn't on the LOS, thus even if Boateng was on the LOS, and Ross was off the LOS (to avoid the "ineligible receiver downfield" penalty), Cal would have only had six players on the LOS thus the illegal formation; or

(2) Tucker was on the LOS, but neither Ross or Boateng were on the LOS.

Yet, the refs appeared to arrive at neither of the above conclusions.  Why?  Because there are no flags.  Let's look at screen grabs for evidence of the refs concluding neither of the two above notions...

 

A2_medium

Here's the snapshot after the ball has been snapped.  The line judge at the top of the screen by USC's bench hasn't thrown a flag.  Thus, if he hasn't thrown a flag, he must have been satisfied that Boateng was on the LOS, and Ross was off the LOS.  Thus, there was no ineligible receiver down field.  Furthermore, because the ref didn't throw a flag, he must have been satisfied that Cal had at least seven men on the LOS

 

A8_medium

Let's see another angle.  Here, the ref clearly hasn't thrown a flag and he isn't reaching for one either.  It's hard to see but both of his hands are at his side and he isn't reaching into his pocket or belt for the flag. 

 

A3_medium

Well into the play, the ref still hasn't thrown a flag. 


A10_medium

And finally, the ref on the other side of the field by Tucker hasn't thrown a flag either.  Thus, he must have been satisfied that Cal had seven men on the LOS, and specifically that Tucker was on the LOS.  You can clearly see the ref looking left towards Riley who has just thrown the ball.  There isn't a flag in sight.

So the conclusion is this: both line judges thought Cal's formation was legal and Cal had seven men on the LOS (which implies that Ross wasn't covered up and thus he wasn't an ineligible receiver downfield).  

But if that's what the evidence shows then why did they call a penalty?!?!

Answer: Pete Carroll convinced them.

That must be the answer.  You see, Boateng is right in front of the USC bench.  Without a doubt, the USC coaches saw Boateng frantically trying to tell Ross that Ross should back up to ensure Ross was off the LOS.  So when the USC coaches saw this, after the play, then went to the line judge who was on their side of the field, and said something like: "Hey, didn't you see the WR telling the other WR to back up?  That must have been an ineligible receiver down field"

A statement like that would make sense.  The line judge on USC's sidelines would have a thought process like as follows: "Boateng is telling Ross to move back, Boateng wouldn't be telling Ross to move back unless Boateng thought Ross was on the LOS and Ross should have been off the LOS, thus Ross was on the LOS, and thus Ross was covered up and was an ineligible receiver down field."

Of course, that's what the penalty was originally.  But as we all know, they clarified it later on to "illegal formation" - which doesn't make sense since apparently at the time of the play, both of the line judges appeared satisfied that the formation was legal on their respective sides. 

So the evidence just doesn't add up to an "illegal formation" penalty.

Pac-10 officiating, yeah?  You betcha!

 

Ross & Boateng Sure Seem Confused Nevertheless

A7_medium

Ironically, Ross seems to think he's on the LOS, and Boateng should be off the LOS.  Ross can clearly be seen motioning to Boateng to move back.  The entire time though, Boateng thought he was supposed to be on  the LOS, and was telling Ross to move back.

 

 

A5_medium

In the end, Boateng relents and gets up on the LOS whether he should be there or not.  When the ball is snapped (yellow dot), it certainly appears to the line judge on USC's sideline (top of the picture) that Boateng is on the LOS, and Ross is off the LOS. 


WRs Still Confused

A6_medium

On the very next play, Cal gets a real "illegal formation" penalty.  As you can see from the picture above, Cal only has six men on the LOS.  The WR at the bottom of the screen should be on the LOS.


Quarterback is at Fault Too

The WRs aren't the only ones at fault here.  The QB should have fixed this error.  It's the QB's job to notice these minute details and fix them.  Longshore has done it before.  So has Riley.  But perhaps in the craziness of the Coliseum noise it slipped Riley's attention. 

 

Illegal Snap Penalties

I think what's happening here is when Mack is telling the other offensive linemen when he's going to snap the ball, he's accidentally moving the ball.  You see, Mack often does that point-the-left-hand-forward-just-before-the-snap thing to notify the other offensive linemen via their peripheral vision when he's about to snap the ball.  Either he's slightly moving the ball when he does this, or the defensive linemen are reacting to him pointing and thus react (jump), but the refs flag Mack instead of the defense.  If you watch the game, you can clearly see Mack is confused as to why he's being flagged.  He clearly thinks he has done nothing wrong - which to my knowledge and from the hard-to-see video he hasn't done anything wrong.  Unless, of course, the whole point-the-left-hand-forward-just-before-the-snap is illegal.  But Mack has been doing that for a while (starting last year, I think) and if it truly was illegal you think they would have stopped him a long time ago.


Phantom Touchdown II

Give a listen to Ken Crawford's USC podcast.  He's got a lot of good stuff including a quote from Tedford saying how even though the Phantom Catch II was shown on the replay screen, it was hard to see from across the field and it wasn't really shown early enough to challenge the play.

2 recs  |  Comment 77 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

You need "at least" 7 on the LOS
I’m pretty sure you can have more than seven men on the LOS. This is probably a question for Ragnarok to answer since he’s the rules guru around here

I’m no Ragnarok, but I have this to contribute —

2008 NCAA Rule Book at Rule 1, Section 1:
“At the snap, at least seven men are on the offensive scrimmage line,
with not less than five numbered 50 through 79 (Rules 2-21-2, 2-27-4
and 7-1-3-b-1).”

So you can have as many as you want on the LOS. If you have more than 7, though, you reduce your number of eligible receivers.

Go Bears!

by Ohio Bear on Nov 12, 2008 7:32 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Pssst. Hey, you. Ohio Bear. Hey, don’t tell anybody, keep this on the downlow, but we are looking for a new rules guru. I have to have an awkward conversation with Ragnarok first, but hey is this something that interests you.

PS Tap your nose twice if this is something that interests you.

Please disregard the above ramblings as those of a clearly delusional fan.

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Nov 12, 2008 7:34 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Correct

Beat me to the punch, sir. Good show.

So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!

by ragnarok on Nov 12, 2008 9:12 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Tap tap
(Unless Ragnarok would be mad, in which case the second tap was not on my nose.)

Go Bears!

by Ohio Bear on Nov 12, 2008 7:42 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

STOP TOUCHING ME!

Please disregard the above ramblings as those of a clearly delusional fan.

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Nov 12, 2008 7:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That wasn't me

Must have been Pete Carroll trying to get you to throw a flag.

Go Bears!

by Ohio Bear on Nov 12, 2008 7:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Nailed It!

sobs

Please disregard the above ramblings as those of a clearly delusional fan.

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Nov 12, 2008 7:59 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I ain’t mad at cha. Though why Twist doesn’t come to me with these things first is a little puzzling.

Your knowledge-dropping skills are excellent. That should get you a good recommendation. However, your ‘replying to the correct post’ skills need work. ;)

So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!

by ragnarok on Nov 12, 2008 9:11 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I……………..have to have an awkward conversation with you.

Please disregard the above ramblings as those of a clearly delusional fan.

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Nov 12, 2008 9:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

How is that different from every other conversation I have ever had with you, ever?

So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!

by ragnarok on Nov 12, 2008 9:19 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, I am explicitly stating the awkwardness ahead of time.

Please disregard the above ramblings as those of a clearly delusional fan.

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Nov 12, 2008 9:21 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Gotcha.

Soooo, what did you want to talk about? Is this about our relationship? ‘Cause I’ve been thinking maybe we should see other bloggers.

So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!

by ragnarok on Nov 12, 2008 9:24 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I’ve been blogging under the name CV3000 for several months now. Sorry it had to come out like this.

Please disregard the above ramblings as those of a clearly delusional fan.

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Nov 12, 2008 9:36 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You mean…? This whole time…? sob

Has everything we’ve done together been a lie?

So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!

by ragnarok on Nov 12, 2008 9:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, not everything. But most things.

Please disregard the above ramblings as those of a clearly delusional fan.

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Nov 12, 2008 10:00 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Wrong call, right result?

Great examination of this buzzkilling event in the game. But here’s another twist (not Twist N Hook, just twist). Did Boateng relent and move up onto the LOS while Vereen was in motion? If so, then THAT was a penalty — illegal motion. If Boateng and Vereen were moving at the same time, both would have had to be set again prior to the snap to make it a legal play.

Go Bears!

by Ohio Bear on Nov 12, 2008 8:03 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Good point

But then where’s the flag? Perhaps the Boateng moved after Vereen had stopped, then that wouldn’t have been a penalty.

www.californiagoldenblogs.com

by HydroTech on Nov 12, 2008 2:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There's some confusion here

The foul was not on Ross but on Boateng. Nyan did not initially position himself at the LOS. He was not able to set himself at the LOS before the play was snapped (you can watch the video here at around 2:10, he’s still moving up), and thus became an ineligible man downfield. Whether Carroll convinced the ref or not was immaterial, Boateng’s frenetic motion drew attention from the USC coaches who drew the attention to the refs.

And yes, that motion did come at the same time Vereen was in motion, which was a no-call illegal shift. So two penalties could have been called on the play (and I’m pretty sure an illegal shift is reviewable).

by BearsNecessity on Nov 12, 2008 8:17 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Actually, penalties in general are not reviewable. The exceptions are these:

- Forward pass beyond the line of scrimmage.
- Forward pass after a change in possession.
- Scrimmage kick beyond the line of scrimmage.
- Too many men on the field.

Everything else is pretty much a judgment call. Although the rules do state that replay officials have the ability to correct egregious errors.

So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!

by ragnarok on Nov 12, 2008 9:21 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Forward pass beyond the line of scrimmage.

SOBBING

DAMN YOU ELI MANNING AND TOM COUGHLIN

Still happy over the fact that the Nets signed Ryan Anderson. Now if only they can sign Leon Powe after this year...

by yellow fever on Nov 12, 2008 9:38 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Forward motion does not make you ineligible - only illegal procedure (or illegal shift)

The OC Register USC blog made this point too – that Boateng moving within 1 second of the snap rendered him ineligbible. While forward motion within 1 second of the snap is a penalty, it does not render the receiver ineligible. It is illegal motion or illegal shift, which was not called.

If forward motion rendered a receiver ineligible, that would mean Boateng could move forward within 1 second of the snap and it would be legal as long as he didn’t downfield. We know that is not the rule. It would be kind of pointless if it were, because as soon as the receiver made forward motion, it would give away to the defense that the WR is staying home.

While this may be what Carroll tried to spin it as after the fact, the fact is, it is a faulty rationale. Illegal motion? Maybe, although that is very, very close. Plus, it’s too obvious of a penalty not to throw the flag right away, so there is no way this is what the refs thought.

Ineligble receiver due to forward motion within 1 second of snap? No such thing.

by The Bear Will Not Quit on Nov 12, 2008 10:00 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hm, I’m pretty sure it’s an illegal formation. You can’t have two receivers lined up on the LOS like that right?

All I’m saying is that there was a penalty somewhere here.

by BearsNecessity on Nov 12, 2008 1:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think I'm gonna get sick

This is crazy.

Does anyone feel Cal gets a “little too cute” with formations and motion? Maybe it’s part of their gig. In the world of keep it simple this is definitely not. I wonder if the O had more continuity (lineman injuries, WR ineffectiveness, concussed Riley, and Rileyshoregate) these types of mistakes/confusion would be avoided.

Of course, the Niners try to change personnel before a spike…and can’t seem to figure out where the ball is placed…

Also, doesn’t 1 WR (when 3 are lining up) have to be 3 yards back? Is this only a pro rule? Or am I wrong completely?

Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.

by carp on Nov 12, 2008 8:38 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

It wasn’t really a cute formation.. Ross and Boateng just weren’t on the same page and couldn’t communicate through the loud crowd. Riley should have seen the confusion and signaled to them before Shane went in motion, or he should have burned the timeout. It was a great play call and throw btw

...nuh nuh nuh gone

by Thoroughbred on Nov 12, 2008 8:43 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Your WRs don’t have to all be 3 yards back, but the ones who aren’t can’t be WRs. Look at it this way: a line can only have 2 ends (that’s basic geometry). The guys on the end of the line are called “Ends” (duh) — Split End, Tight End — and they’re eligible receivers. Anybody behind the LOS is also eligible. Anybody on the line but not on the end, who goes downfield, is an “ineligible receiver downfield”.

by JSC 76 on Nov 12, 2008 9:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What does it mean...

… for a receiver to be “covered up”? Covered up by whom? from what? Thanks for your patience….

by LovinBlue on Nov 12, 2008 8:56 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

A guy on the line, who has another person to the outside, is “covered up” by that guy, and is therefore not an eligible receiver. In our scenario, Ross was covered up by Boateng — they were both on the LOS, but Boateng was on the end of the line and was therefore an eligible receiver. Ross was covered up by Boateng, and was ineligible.

by JSC 76 on Nov 12, 2008 9:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

if you are correct

I think I get it.

Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.

by carp on Nov 12, 2008 9:09 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And then there's "tackle eligible" play

Instead of a normal line of (left to right) TE, LT, LG, C, RG, RT, WR — you could have WR, TE (ineligible), LT, LG, C, RG, RT. In this formation, the RT is an eligible receiver.

by JSC 76 on Nov 12, 2008 9:19 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But aren't there plays...

… when there is nobody in the backfield and everyone’s on the line? Or is that just an illusion and there’s always someone just off the line so as not to be covered up?

by LovinBlue on Nov 12, 2008 9:16 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Generally, it’s an illusion. Best will move from his normal tailback position into “the slot” (the gap between the Split End and a Tackle), but behind the LOS. He’s technically still in the backfield.

by JSC 76 on Nov 12, 2008 9:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Phantom Touchdown II

Shouldn’t the replay booth have called for review on their own?

by Rishi on Nov 12, 2008 9:01 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

AMAZING ANALYSIS

… but now i want to bury Carroll alive.

by danzig on Nov 12, 2008 10:17 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

WOW

The pictures of the refs not going for their flags is pretty strong evidence for your theory Hydro…this just really gets me. It’s like the stinkyness of the Pac-10 basketball refs has now fully permeated the football side. Ugh.

It was such a pretty play, too.

MCCLESKEY!!

by Paulie on Nov 12, 2008 10:22 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

It looks like we're coming to a consensus

Not a legal play, not for the reasons mentioned by the officials but because of what amounted to an illegal shift—Boateng and Vereen moving at the same time and then not getting set for a full second before the snap. My only quibble with your analysis, Hydro, is that LOS position has nothing to do with feet. Under Rule 2-27 (Article 4), a player is on the LOS when his head breaks the plane of the snapper’s waist. But there’s also some ambiguity, because a player is not officially a “back” unless his entire head/body is behind the rear-most point of the closest adjacent lineman. This puts Ross in an uncertain position—probably not (just barely) on the LOS, but clearly not a legal “back” either. So maybe the first call was technically correct, if you accept that Ross wasn’t back far enough to be truly eligible.

This play was a mess all the way around. And while I can accept that the TD technically should not have counted, I remain infuriated at the incompetent way the officials handled it. Clearly you are right, Hydro, that the SC bench talked them into throwing a late flag, exploiting the fact that the refs really weren’t sure of what they had just seen. That should NEVER happen. The first rule of officiating any sport is to be decisive. It’s OK to be occasionally wrong; it’s never OK to be indecisive. Make your call (or your non-call) and stand by it.

It’s painfully ironic that the one area of officiating where it’s OK to rethink a call—through instant replay—wasn’t used in a situation where it was obviously warranted. I wish Tedford had spoken up on the Phantom TD, but he shouldn’t have had to. Instead, it’s the Cal TD that was effectively “reviewed”, without the benefit of instant replay.

As for Mack’s illegal snaps. My reading of the rule book is that he is free to take his hand(s) off the ball to communicate to teammates, but if he’s still holding the ball, he can’t move it in any way that might simulate a snap. I suspect he does this all the time, and usually doesn’t get called for it. But this officiating crew was being extra strict all night long, and they decided to call him on it. Just a terrible, terrible night for the refs—a far too common event in the Pac-10.

Go Bears!

by California Pete on Nov 12, 2008 12:15 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

A terrible night for the refs, benefiting USC

haven’t seen that before…

www.californiagoldenblogs.com

by CBKWit on Nov 12, 2008 12:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think they tried to even things out from the late-hit on Nate call.

Sheriff of the Welcome Team.
Welcome.
But Stop Arguing Nate vs. Kevin.

by Spazzy Mcgee on Nov 12, 2008 12:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I actually thought that was a good call, and not just because I’m a homer. The SC defender clearly took at least two steps after Nate released the ball, and he also clearly shoved him. It was a gentle shove, to be sure, and the fact that Nate went sprawling to the ground had more to do with his momentum than with the force of the blow.

But a late hit is a late hit, no matter how malicious or vicious it might be.

Go Bears!

by California Pete on Nov 12, 2008 2:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This is true…that gentle shove might have resulted in a messed up ankle/foot if he had fallen awkwardly.

Sheriff of the Welcome Team.
Welcome.
But Stop Arguing Nate vs. Kevin.

by Spazzy Mcgee on Nov 12, 2008 2:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

wow, you usually don’t see the word “if” before “awkward” when referring to Nate

It's seriously too bad that there's no building or complex around that might have a large supply of sports drinks.

by thenick on Nov 12, 2008 6:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

California Pete

Thanks for the rule on what is “on the LOS” and “off the LOS.”

I agree too, that while this TD shouldn’t have counted, it appears the refs were completely incompetent in the way it was handled.

www.californiagoldenblogs.com

by HydroTech on Nov 12, 2008 2:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

CONSPIRACY!!!!!!!!

Sheriff of the Welcome Team.
Welcome.
But Stop Arguing Nate vs. Kevin.

by Spazzy Mcgee on Nov 12, 2008 12:35 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Not sure where to find the division I rulebook, so let me ask, does anyone know how far off the LOS one needs to be to be considered ‘off?’ 1 yard? 1.5 yards? Thanks.

by SonofCalifornia on Nov 12, 2008 1:05 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

By the way, nice analysis Hydro. For a while there it almost started reminding me of those logic games I hated so much in college: if there are 8 seats at a round table and John likes to sit next to Betty but not next to Frank and Frank needs two seats between him and Joe, etc. Agh! Hated those!

by SonofCalifornia on Nov 12, 2008 1:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I loved those logic games!

Still happy over the fact that the Nets signed Ryan Anderson. Now if only they can sign Leon Powe after this year...

by yellow fever on Nov 12, 2008 1:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

that’s illogical!

by SonofCalifornia on Nov 12, 2008 1:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Alright, here are five statements. What is the sixth?

(a) No interesting poems are unpopular among people of real taste.
(b) No modern poetry is free from affectation.
© All your poems are on the subject of soap bubbles.
(d) No affected poetry is popular among people of real taste.
(e) No ancient poem is on the subject of soap bubbles.
(f)

Sheriff of the Welcome Team.
Welcome.
But Stop Arguing Nate vs. Kevin.

by Spazzy Mcgee on Nov 12, 2008 1:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

(f) All Your Base Are Belong To Us

no?

Hope is dangerous, but Glory is addictive.

by AndBears on Nov 12, 2008 1:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No.

Sheriff of the Welcome Team.
Welcome.
But Stop Arguing Nate vs. Kevin.

by Spazzy Mcgee on Nov 12, 2008 2:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

(f) You’re poetry is not interesting?

PS-Fuck USC.

by berk18 on Nov 12, 2008 2:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I really wish I could edit my posts.

by berk18 on Nov 12, 2008 2:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

DING DING DING

Sheriff of the Welcome Team.
Welcome.
But Stop Arguing Nate vs. Kevin.

by Spazzy Mcgee on Nov 12, 2008 2:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree. Ancient is not the negation of modern necessarily.

It’s times like this I wish they’d never discovered CougCenterium.

by Maharg on Nov 12, 2008 2:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree. Ancient is the affirmation of modern, unnecessarily.

Sheriff of the Welcome Team.
Welcome.
But Stop Arguing Nate vs. Kevin.

by Spazzy Mcgee on Nov 12, 2008 2:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That should be a tagline.

CGB: I agree. Ancient is the affirmation of modern, unnecessarily.

It’s times like this I wish they’d never discovered CougCenterium.

by Maharg on Nov 12, 2008 2:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree…

Sheriff of the Welcome Team.
Welcome.
But Stop Arguing Nate vs. Kevin.

by Spazzy Mcgee on Nov 12, 2008 2:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That should be a tagline.

CGB: I disagree…

It’s times like this I wish they’d never discovered CougCenterium.

by Maharg on Nov 12, 2008 3:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

if you go down to the ‘Resources’ sidebar near the bottom of the left side on our front page, I’ve linked the Rulebook PDF there.

So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!

by ragnarok on Nov 12, 2008 2:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I tried to summarize the rule in my post above
Under Rule 2-27 (Article 4), a player is on the LOS when his head breaks the plane of the snapper’s waist. But there’s also some ambiguity, because a player is not officially a "back" unless his entire head/body is behind the rear-most point of the closest adjacent lineman.

Look up Rule 2-27, and you’ll see a very convoluted definition of what it means to be a “lineman” rather than a “back”. (Pictures would sure be nice, NCAA!) If I’m reading things correctly, there is actually a gray area where one can technically not be on the LOS, but also not be legally a “back”—such as when the quarterback sets up under center (which is explicitly allowed under the rules.) It appears to me from the snapshots, that Ross was lined up in that ambiguous space, which I assume means he technically wasn’t an eligible receiver. But I also believe that officials usually enforce these rules quite generously, and “close enough” is often the implied standard. By such a standard, I think Cal was legally lined up at the snap, except that Boateng and Vereen had illegally shifted at the same time. I am curious, though, as to where Ross thought he was lined up. Did he intend to be on the LOS, of did he think he was an eligible back?

Go Bears!

by California Pete on Nov 12, 2008 2:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

BS CALL!!!

Cal Bears, A's, Kings, Steelers

by HovaInsomnia on Nov 12, 2008 7:00 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Let’s get this straight because it is pretty clear that a LOT of people replying do not know the rules.

1. You can have as many players on the line of scrimmage as you want. No less than 7. 5 of those players must be numbered 50-79. To be on the line your head must break the waistline of the snapper. When dealing with receivers the NCAA has a philosphy that they don’t want to “nit pick” on receivers who are split out wide. They want there to be some sort of stagger (one forward of the other) If in fact they judged the inside receiver to be on the line as well as the outside receiver, the inside receiver is inelgible to be downfield during a pass that crosses the line of scrimmage. Judgement call all the way. The timing of the flag isn’t important, only that the official seen the play, replayed it in his mind so that he was sure of what he had before he flags it. This isn’t basketball, where you have to be quick to call the foul.

2. This play is definitely illegal. There was an illegal shift. The rule is, when 2 or more players are moving, they both must be set for 1 second prior to the snap. That did not happen. First you had a back going in motion and while he is in motion that outside receiver shifted forward to get on the line, and before they both were stopped for 1 second, the ball is snapped. That is a text book illegal shift.

It is quite possible that the official seen that and just reported the foul wrong to the referee. If I remember correctly, no number was reported. If the foul was ineligible downfield he would have announced the number. For an illegal shift or even illegal formation, it’s not charged to a player per se.

The bottom line, no matter what foul they call here, the penalty for any of those (inelgible downfield, illegal formation, and illegal shift) are all 5 yards from the previous spot and repeat the down)

by Clay1975 on Nov 12, 2008 7:09 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

You are entirely correct

But the timing of the flag bothers me. Not because the referee can’t throw a late flag (it doesn’t affect the play), but if the ref saw it, why wait so long to throw it? Pete Carroll shouldn’t be able to “work” the refs and convince them that they saw something that they may have seen, or may only remember that they saw. Memory is very open to suggestion, and the longer you wait to throw a flag, the more suspect it is. Penalties are non-reviewable precisely because they are often snap judgment calls.

So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!

by ragnarok on Nov 12, 2008 7:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And your point is?

All of this is consistent with what I and many others have written above.

Where I think we disagree is on the basic philosophy behind good officiating. I very much distinguish between “good” calls and “correct” calls. Usually, those two are synonymous, but not always. As you point out in your “bottom line”, the officials ultimately made the “correct” call on this play. But I still stand by my conclusion that it was a bad call—a very bad call. For two reasons:

(1) The officials were “correct” in this instance in the same way that a broken clock is correct twice a day. They said it was ineligible receiver, then they said it was illegal formation. It was neither. It was, as you note, an illegal shift.

(2) I do not want any official to ever replay the action “in his mind”—not in football, not in basketball, not in any sport. Make the call quickly and decisively and stick to it. Otherwise you become subject to faulty memory, personal bias, and the lobbying of Pete Carroll coaches.

Go Bears!

by California Pete on Nov 12, 2008 7:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Making a snap decision leads to more incorrect calls than anything. When I officiate and I see something I most certainly review all aspects of the rule in my mind before I throw a flag. I want to make dam sure I have a foul before I throw it. The comment about Pete Carrol talking him into the call is crazy. If you have ever officiated you’d understand my opinion about that being crazy. When you are on the field working the play, you can’t even hear the coaches. Who said they changed it from ineligible to illegal formation? Was it just some sports report. I’d like to know because I have first hand information that it was reported as ineligible. We can agree or disagree on the judgement of that, and my opinion was it shouldn’t have been ineligible based upon the NCAA philosophy on wide receivers that I mentioned previously. By the book, he may have been ineligible. By the philosophy he was probably legal. The illegal shift was not legal.

by Clay1975 on Nov 12, 2008 8:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Link doesn’t work.

It’s times like this I wish they’d never discovered CougCenterium.

by Maharg on Nov 13, 2008 8:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

LINK FIXED

www.californiagoldenblogs.com

by HydroTech on Nov 13, 2008 12:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I rec’ed your post. But to be fair, I am an ignorant blowhard.

Please disregard the above ramblings as those of a clearly delusional fan.

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Nov 13, 2008 3:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

just about every post California Pete writes is rec worthy.

www.californiagoldenblogs.com

by HydroTech on Nov 13, 2008 3:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So if we were to use a film star:posts analogy, California Pete would be James Dean, TwistNHook would be…Rob Schneider?

Sheriff of the Welcome Team.
Welcome.
But Stop Arguing Nate vs. Kevin.

by Spazzy Mcgee on Nov 13, 2008 3:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You are all much too kind. But if you really want to metaphorically equate me to a film star, can I please be Steve McQueen? (Although I fear my wordiness makes me more Jimmy Stewart.)

Go Bears!

by California Pete on Nov 13, 2008 3:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I was going for low # of posts/films, high quality vs. high # of posts/films, nonsense.

Sheriff of the Welcome Team.
Welcome.
But Stop Arguing Nate vs. Kevin.

by Spazzy Mcgee on Nov 13, 2008 3:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Are you saying somtehing about Deuce Bigalow?

Please disregard the above ramblings as those of a clearly delusional fan.

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Nov 13, 2008 3:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And I’m especially miffed that, rather than engaging us in thoughtful discussion—which includes actually reading what we have written—the lurking refs completely dismiss us as ignorant blowhards. Another educational opportunity missed.


Let me be clearer for you CaliPete: hey spineless pr*cks over at zebra times, go **** yourself. As a former player, this seems typical of many of the refs I’ve met, arrogant, full of themselves, and quick to judge. And these are probably the refs that never make it Division I, exactly because of those characteristics. Lame.

by SonofCalifornia on Nov 13, 2008 4:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes!

That’s exactly what I was trying to say.

Go Bears!

by California Pete on Nov 13, 2008 4:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I know you got it CaliPete, but re-reading this I hope folks understood the first part was tongue n’ cheek. The second part, however, I do believe.

by SonofCalifornia on Nov 13, 2008 5:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

The California Sports Website that's .....different from all the rest.

GoldenBlogs' FAQ
Start posting about the Golden Bears »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
Tedford's Early Recruiting Classes- An Objective Re-Evaluation
Cgb1_small
DBD 2.4.10 BAM Competition
Jones_1_squared_small
The 2010 National Signing Day Preview
Calflag_small
California Golden Recruits Thread: Signing Day Week
Trebek_small
Cal Rugby: Whose Scrum Axe?

Recent FanPosts

Calflag_small
DBD 2.10.10 Avatar = Treesitter Propaganda?
Chowder2_small
DBD 2.09.10 Cal Football Crossword Puzzle
Small
Fujita's suggestion pays off
Att0002323_small
DBD 2.8.10 Better know a Bear
Football_small
Free Audio Stream of Super Bowl?
Trebek_small
DBD 2.5.10
Tbc_small
Wunderkind QB to Become the Next Prince of $C
Concord_aerial_1930_small
Depth Charts on Defense - now with stats!

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

SPONSORS


Marshawnthusiasts!

Bear_small ragnarok

Script_cal_small HydroTech

Cal_football_2005_09_16_roll_07_012_small CBKWit

P1_marshawn_small TwistNHook

1262541127_small yellow fever

Jahvidtician

Giorgiorope_small Berkelium97

Calflag_small Avinash

Member Of The Follettariat

Bear__small norcalnick

Official Partner of CBS Sports