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GoldenBlogs Top 25 - Week 6

I just keep opening cans of worms, don't I?  With last week's Top 25, I spent a good deal of time responding to questions, specifically regarding my ranking methodology.  I gave an overview of the most common types of rankings, examined some of the strengths and weaknesses of each, and explained why I chose the method that I use.  This, I thought, would settle the matter.  I was wrong.

Reader Calfan posted a long, insightful comment attacking the traditional 'Power Poll' methodology on several fronts.  First off:

“Power polls,” or even power polls hybridized with resume polls, lose meaning as the season nears its conclusion. That is, the essential question of the power poll – “which team is better, and would win the most on a neutral field, right now?” – produces more and more intuitively objectionable anomalies as we reach December and January. As a result, it’s a methodology that comes close to but fails to telling us what we really want to know: what ranking does a team deserve?

My response partially rebutted his criticism, but it didn't solve the central quandry:

First of all, you state “what we really want to know: what ranking does a team deserve?” This is a loaded question. When you ask it, you are implicitly looking for a résumé ranking, as that is the question such a ranking is designed to answer; any power poll ranking will necessarily fall short of satisfying you. That’s not what a pure power poll is for. Of course Ohio State doesn’t deserve any ranking at all so far: yes, they’re 4-1, but those wins are against 1-AA Youngstown State, Ohio, Troy, and Minnesota. Get back to me after the Wisconsin game. Still, my eyes tell me that they’re still pretty good, so for now, they are given a middling ranking.

What we have here is a pretty fundamental conflict, centered around what question we should even be answering with a Top 25 ranking.  Do we ask "Which team is best?"  In such a case, we want a power poll.  Or do we ask "Which team has accomplished the most?"  Then we want a résumé ranking.  In most professional sports, the schedules are fairly balanced, so the best teams ARE the ones that accomplish the most, but that is hardly the case with college football.  The differences between such polls are real, and solid arguments can be made in favor of either approach.

So which to choose?

Star-divide

This question is not merely academic, as Calfan astutely points out:

Methodology for college football polling is particularly contentious because of the way we choose our champion. I won’t turn this into a playoffs vs. bowls debate, but the fact that the polls decide who plays for (or even who gets) the championship means votes have to do two things in tension: reward the teams with the most accomplished seasons and pick the teams playing the best at that time.

On one hand, schedules are not equal, and they are not entirely the fault of the schools.  Those teams outside of the BCS conferences have basically no shot at accomplishing the most, simply because their schedule will not allow it.  Utah in 2004 is a classic example.  They blew away their entire schedule; just one team (Air Force) came within 2 touchdowns of them the entire year, and even the Zoomies lost by 14.  To base things entirely on their résumé (especially given the BCS's margin-of-victory agnosticism) is unfair, and frankly, rather un-American.  However, rewarding teams for finishing well is hardly fair either.  Anyone think that USC deserved a shot at the big prize last year after dropping a home game to 41-point dog Stanford back in October?  Yeah, neither do I.

Surprisingly, the AP, organizers of football's oldest and most respected poll, offer no guidance whatsoever on the issue.  If memory serves me correctly, AP ballots merely ask voters to rank the top 25 teams in college football; specific criteria are left entirely up to the voter's discretion.  The BlogPoll, for whom we compile our own Top 25, supplies more verbiage but not much more direction:

Preseason polls are supposed to be exclusively about how good a team is thought to be, and postseason polls are supposed to be exclusively about how much a team has accomplished on the field.

Now... it is impossible to separate the former from the latter in late-season polls because college football provides such a sparse data set, but at the very least BlogPoll voters know they shouldn't vote a 9-2 USC team #1 even if they think they're the best team unless that 9-2 includes three killer nonconference matchups.

I don't pretend that our ballot will have any impact on who college football's eventual national champion will be, but I still think a question such as this is worth discussing.  After all, if we're going to bother to put together a Top 25, and you're going to bother to read it, you should be able to infer some sort of meaning from it.

So, to get back to the central question, what am I doing here?  Honestly, it's much easier to say what I'm not doing.  I'm not putting out a pure power poll, as I think ignoring a team's past record is both willfully ignorant and unduly rewarding of talented-but-inconsistent teams.  However, neither am I putting out a pure résumé ranking, as I think ignoring what I've seen when watching all the football I see every Saturday is also willfully ignorant.  College football has such a "sparse data set" that when trying to differentiate the top teams in college football, I need as much information as I can get, even if some of it is the sort of wishy-washy 'they just look better' evidence that I get via my cable package.

In essence, I am doing "two things in tension", and it is not simple.  Yet, even as I admit it is a compromise solution, I attest that it is also the best one; neither extreme satisfies me.  This leaves but one criticism left:

So if everything is a mess, why am I ragging on power polls in particular? Because at the end of the day, I don’t think they can stay internally consistent while rewarding the right things. What ragnaok said above – in describing his hybrid method – is just that on the continuum from power poll to resume, he probably shifts left to right over the course of the season. In any given week, though, a reader doesn’t know what the poll means – even with his disclosure of methodology.

He's got a point there.  While either a Power Poll or a Résumé Ranking can be said to answer a specific question, my hybrid method is not so easily distilled.  From week to week, it's a moving target, an evolving attempt at compromise.  Still, that doesn't mean I'm making it all up from week to week; far from it.  Every week I'm still ranking what I think are the top 25 teams.  It's just that as more games get played, I gather more information -- more hard data -- and things I thought I knew are replaced by things I actually know.  Is it a bit messy?  Sure.  However, I don't think I can come up with a list of 25 teams that I honestly think are the best by any simpler or more transparent method.  If that doesn't quite satisfy you, well, I don't really blame you.  Do you have a better idea?

Perhaps next week I'll talk more about why I think a pure résumé ranking is silly, or one of the other 3 or 4 topics I meant get to today, and didn't.  Anyway, here's our Top 25 for the week:

Rank
TeamDelta
1 Oklahoma --
2 Alabama --
3 Missouri --
4 Penn State 2
5 LSU 1
6 Texas 1
7 Southern Cal
3
8 Texas Tech 1
9 Brigham Young 1

This was a particularly divisive week to put together our Top 25.  Frankly, Yellow Fever, CBKWit and myself didn't agree on much at all.  Here's what we did agree on:  Oklahoma is #1.  BYU is #9.  The other 7 teams listed here all fit together in some order between them.  That's about it.  USC puts its embarrassing loss to Oregon State behind it, both in their minds and in the minds of a lot of voters, in decisively crushing Oregon.  Still, I think 'SC's got another loss in the somewhere down the road.  Right now, I'm willing to call them the best one-loss team, for whatever that's worth.

Rank
TeamDelta
10 Georgia 1
11 Florida 1
12 Boise State 3
13 Vanderbilt 6
14 Oklahoma State 6
15 Utah 1
16 Ohio State --
17 Virginia Tech 5
18 Kansas 5

Here's what else we agreed on.  All 3 of us had all 9 of these teams somewhere on our ballots.  Vandy moves up after a huge win over Auburn, although I remain skeptical, mostly because I think that little of Auburn's offense.  At this point, I'm not sure how to differentiate teams like Oklahoma State and Utah; thoughts?

Also, Kansas falls despite winning.  Not only does a 2-point win over Iowa State not inspire confidence, but remember their tight game @ South Florida earlier this year?  Well, South Florida got punked by Pitt, so as the Bulls fall, they drag the Jayhawks down with them.  Realistically, I think we should still switch South Florida and Kansas, at least until one of them takes another loss, but this is how the average works out.  Come up with a convincing argument, and we'll change things 'round.

Rank
TeamDelta
19 South Florida 10
20 Wake Forest 5
21 North Carolina 5
22 California 4
23 TCU 3
24 Northwestern 2
25 Illinois 1

I think CBKWit said it best when he submitted his Top 25 to me:  "Man, I hate everyone starting at 19.  None of those teams should be ranked, but you have to rank somebody."  Yep, here's a list of somebodies.  Wild disagreement here.  Not one of these teams showed up on all three of our ballots, as I think each of us struggled to find teams we felt deserved some measure of our confidence.  TCU and Illinois are entirely my fault; I just didn't feel like rewarding undefeated teams with soft schedules, which is why I didn't vote for Northwestern or Ball State (who didn't make it).

And TCU?  Sure, they got slammed by Oklahoma, but so has everyone else so far.  And I challenge you to tell me how that loss is somehow worse than Ohio State's loss @ USC, yet everyone had no problem leaving the Buckeyes, who now have a comeback win over no-longer-ranked Wisconsin as their best win, in the middle of their ballots.  I cry double standard.

Dropped Out: Wisconsin (#17), Auburn (#18), Fresno State (#21), Oregon (#23), Connecticut (#24)

I never believed in Connecticut.  Auburn and Oregon will be back.  Probably Wisky too.  Fresno?  The Bulldogs just took their second home loss, this time to Hawai'i.  The 2008 version, minus Colt Brennan.  Not good.  I predict a Fresno-free rest of 2008 for the GoldenBlogs' Top 25.
Poll
What method should CGB use to come up with our weekly Top 25?
Power Poll
14 votes
Résumé Ranking
11 votes
A blend of the two
28 votes
Some other method (explain in the comments section)
8 votes

61 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 101 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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Comments

Display:

I would drop Oregon lower. Unranked seems too high to me.

It's spelled "S-h-u-f-a-i-l"

by JShufelt on Oct 7, 2008 4:38 PM PDT reply actions  

Flip a coin to determine rankings. It’s the only fair way.

It’s times like this I wish they’d never discovered CougCenterium.

by Maharg on Oct 7, 2008 5:32 PM PDT reply actions  

“I just didn’t feel like rewarding undefeated teams with soft schedules”

You mean like Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, and Texas Tech?

by BearsNecessity on Oct 7, 2008 6:27 PM PDT reply actions  

Oklahoma has played a decent Cincinatti team and a good TCU team.

But point on regarding Texas Tech and Oklahoma State. It’s unfortunate but there is a third component to any poll – namebrand recognition. Texas Tech and Oklahoma State aren’t Texas and Oklahoma, but they’re seen as superior to Northwestern or Ball State by virtue of name.

by Rishi on Oct 8, 2008 8:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

good point

I think what I meant by that statement was something more along the lines of

“There are some teams that I didn’t think were very good before the season, and the fact that they’ve gone undefeated against suspect competition hasn’t changed my perception very much.”

Still, you make a good point, especially with regards to Oklahoma State. My guess is they’ll come down to earth this weekend @ Missouri anyway, but they probably shouldn’t have been that high to begin with. Mea culpa.

So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!

by ragnarok on Oct 8, 2008 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

But, see, it makes Mizzou (which I believe is one of the top three teams in the country) look better for beating a ranked team, even if that team should have never been ranked in the first place.

Perception and preseason rankings are why Wisconsin is ranked, but Illinois isn’t (in the real polls).

by Rishi on Oct 8, 2008 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

That's true to some extent

but if Oklahoma State loses a few in a row and drops completely out of the rankings, voters will begin to discount that win. I know that I try to stay on each of these teams as much as possible, gathering as much information as I can.

Take Wisconsin, for example. Not only did the Badgers not make our rankings, but I personally never even considered voting for them, and I know they didn’t show up on YF or CBK’s ballot, either. Normally, a narrow loss to another ranked team (Ohio State) wouldn’t be enough to do this, but Fresno lost, too. In previous polls, I gave credit to Wisconsin for going to Fresno and gutting out a tough road win over what I thought was a good Fresno State team, but it appears that Fresno wasn’t that good to begin with. Not only that, but Fresno’s signature win was a road win at Rutgers, which seemed more impressive at the time when we didn’t know that Rutgers was back to it’s mediocre ways. All of those factors went into play in my completely intentional overlooking of the Badgers.

I know not all of the voters take these sorts of things into consideration, but some of them do, and more of them should.

So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!

by ragnarok on Oct 8, 2008 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

Anyway, I ranked Ball State and Tulsa, mainly because they’re undefeated and they’ve pain trained everyone in front of them. Cal got pain trained once, so that leaves them out of discussion until they pain train someone else.

Here’s my estimate of Wisconsin: OVERRATED. AGAIN. They had no business being in the top 10 (they barely cracked the top 20 in my blogpoll) and have gotten media love disproportionate to what they deserve. Kind of like Fresno (who I only briefly ranked).

I guess what I’m saying is I’m pretty awesome. Even though I keep on leaving Auburn in my polls.

by BearsNecessity on Oct 8, 2008 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

i agree. You are pretty awesone!

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 8, 2008 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

Flagged for freakish flattery.

by BearsNecessity on Oct 8, 2008 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

i left auburn on my ballot

great defense, terrible, awful, no good, very bad offense. probably end up ranked #23 or thereabouts.

So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!

by ragnarok on Oct 8, 2008 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, they’re like an extreme version of the Maginot Line.

by BearsNecessity on Oct 8, 2008 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

whatever happened to Al Borges? did he go somewhere else for this season?

So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!

by ragnarok on Oct 8, 2008 7:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

In limbo right now. He resigned because the team’s offense kept on getting worse and worse after 2004.

by BearsNecessity on Oct 8, 2008 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Pick the teams using Twist

Assign every team a hilarious sentence, phrase, or quote. Whichever one Twist responds “NAILED IT!” to first, give that team the number one slot, and so on and so forth until you have 25 teams.

by GoldBlooded on Oct 7, 2008 6:57 PM PDT reply actions  

Nailed It?

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 7, 2008 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

But Goldblooded is a paper tiger who has defeated nobody!

BTW, you guys noticed that Goldblooded is up on one of those “Berkeley” posters by VLSB?

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 7, 2008 9:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hey...

At least a paper tiger beats a rock lobster like Twistnhook…

Remember, the enemy's end zone is DOWN!

by GoldBlooded on Oct 7, 2008 11:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Rock Lobster? I always viewed myself more as a More Than A Feeling than a Rock Lobster.

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 8, 2008 7:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

You guys might want to tell Brian over at MGOBLOG (and I guess CBS too now) that you’ve moved from the old blogsome site to here. He still has the old link active.

by DougOLis on Oct 7, 2008 9:34 PM PDT reply actions  

“What method should CGB use to come up with our weekly Top 25?”
Darts numbered 1-25.

It's spelled "S-h-u-f-a-i-l"

by JShufelt on Oct 8, 2008 8:38 AM PDT reply actions  

With different weight darts, depending on strength of schedule and how we feel they’d do. In other words, power darts.

by sec119 on Oct 8, 2008 8:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well, it also depends on what the darts had done previously. Sort of resume darts.

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 8, 2008 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

My ballot was follows:

1. Oregon
2-25. Nobody

But, to be fair, I’m incredibly stupid.

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 8, 2008 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

understatement of the millenium

It’s times like this I wish they’d never discovered CougCenterium.

by Maharg on Oct 8, 2008 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

It’s a young millenium. Plenty of time left.

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 8, 2008 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

My ballot was
1. Duke
2. Cal
3. Cal
4. Cal
5. Cal-Poly (SLO) (Accidental ballot. I thought it was another campus for Cal)
6-119. Nobody.

But I’m barely smarter than you.

It's spelled "S-h-u-f-a-i-l"

by JShufelt on Oct 8, 2008 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

I forgot Duke??? Now, I truly am stupids!

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 8, 2008 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

If that’s not a Cal fan, I don’t know what is.

It’s times like this I wish they’d never discovered CougCenterium.

by Maharg on Oct 8, 2008 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

To be fair, you also don’t know what is.

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 8, 2008 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

If I were a true Cal fan…

I’d be pessimistic about my ballot.

It's spelled "S-h-u-f-a-i-l"

by JShufelt on Oct 8, 2008 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

You put Duke #1, how much more pessimistic can you get?

It’s times like this I wish they’d never discovered CougCenterium.

by Maharg on Oct 8, 2008 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

They are awesome.
They beat Maryland ya know.

It's spelled "S-h-u-f-a-i-l"

by JShufelt on Oct 8, 2008 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

Join the club!

Oh.

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 8, 2008 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

Question – why are Duke, Northwestern, and Vanderbilt billed as schools for smart people while no one says the same about Cal, Michigan, and Notre Dame? Is it because the latter three are actually (usually) good at football?

by Rishi on Oct 8, 2008 9:14 AM PDT reply actions  

Plenty of people say that Cal is a school for smart people. Except that, regarding academics, on the East Coast it’s called Berkeley, and a lot of people don’t know that Cal and Berkeley are the same.

by sec119 on Oct 8, 2008 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

Ah...

Still, though, sportswriters tend not to bill Cal as a “smart school”. I don’t know why.

I blame Twist.

by Rishi on Oct 8, 2008 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

/seconded

It’s times like this I wish they’d never discovered CougCenterium.

by Maharg on Oct 8, 2008 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, my advanced athletic ability keeps Cal from being recognized as a place of intellect.

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 8, 2008 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

What a jerk!

It’s times like this I wish they’d never discovered CougCenterium.

by Maharg on Oct 8, 2008 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

it’s a problem that the athletic dept keeps trying to fix…

i have relatives on the east coast who think I go to Berkeley, and that Cal football school has a decent team…. I gave up correcting them

My heart skips a beat every time I hear the band strike up 'Our Sturdy Golden Bear'.

by oskisunbear on Oct 8, 2008 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

Part of this has to do with the fact that the UC system is so good – Cal is the flagship school, but UCLA isn’t too far behind. Hell, the worst UC is probably better than the best state school in a lot of other states.

Part of it is because UCLA Bruins are a bunch of douches.

by Rishi on Oct 8, 2008 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

very true

I remember when I was in high school I saw Cal playing in a basketball game on ESPN (might have been the tournament or something) and I had no idea what school that was. Then it occurred to me once I decided to go Berkeley that California may have been the same as Berkeley.

Still happy over the fact that the Nets signed Ryan Anderson. Now if only they can sign Leon Powe after this year...

by yellow fever on Oct 8, 2008 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

I say we start referring to schools as Gainesville, Austin, Athens, Ann Arbor, Tuscaloosa, Fayetville, Chapel Hill, etc.

Bonus points if you know which schools those are.

by Rishi on Oct 8, 2008 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

Florida, Texas, Georgia, Michigan, Alabama, Something, UNC

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 8, 2008 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

I am not impressed.

by Rishi on Oct 8, 2008 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Are you telling me that University of Something is NOT in Fayetville?

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 8, 2008 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

US – Fayetville is not their flagship campus. Come on, now.

by Rishi on Oct 8, 2008 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

Now, I understand why you werent impressed.

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 8, 2008 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

Florida, texas, georgia, michigan, alabama, arkansas, north carolina…. pwned… or maybe im a dork

My heart skips a beat every time I hear the band strike up 'Our Sturdy Golden Bear'.

by oskisunbear on Oct 8, 2008 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

I’m not impressed. Then again, I lived in SEC country for a while.

by sec119 on Oct 8, 2008 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

I knew it!

Get out of here! Pac-10 only!

by Rishi on Oct 8, 2008 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

*Fayetteville

It's spelled "S-h-u-f-a-i-l"

by JShufelt on Oct 8, 2008 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

I knew all of them except Fayetteville

Arkansas? I never think about that state.

ಠ_ಠ

by Berkelium97 on Oct 8, 2008 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

Arkansas is a state?

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 8, 2008 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

I dunno about that…
Richard Moll wrote a book about the “Public Ivy”. Michigan and Ca (6 of 10 campus’; Berkeley is one)l were listed.

People have a misconception that Private schools are better than Public, and stereotypically, that is somewhat true… But studies show that is not a fact, but opinion.

Example: Berkeley has one of the top rated Mechanical Engineering programs.
Michigan’s law school is one of the best too.

It's spelled "S-h-u-f-a-i-l"

by JShufelt on Oct 8, 2008 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Also, the Ivy League has crappy football teams.

by sec119 on Oct 8, 2008 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

Go Princeton Tigers!

It's spelled "S-h-u-f-a-i-l"

by JShufelt on Oct 8, 2008 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

We also have one of the best CS divisions...

I should know. I keep getting raped by the classes

In other words, Go Bears!

by royrules22 on Oct 8, 2008 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

So failure and rejection are signs of quality?

Man, I guess you must think Cal has the hottest women too.

by Rishi on Oct 8, 2008 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

How could anyone not respond to this brilliant zinger? :(

by Rishi on Oct 8, 2008 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

well, I’m not sure about Notre Dame, but it seems like the private schools in general get the benefit of the doubt over public schools like Cal, UCLA, Michigan, and Virginia. perhaps it has something to do with US News & World Report, whose annual rankings tend to skew heavily in favor of private schools that are bigger on donations and smaller on enrollments (and, hence, class sizes).

So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!

by ragnarok on Oct 8, 2008 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Don't understand USC jumping up 3 spots

So they beat Oregon at home easily. Big deal. Oregon has beat: the Washingtons, Purdue, and Utah State and lost to Boise State. As someone who lives in LA, I hate seeing SC get too much credit for a win.

by MCM711 on Oct 8, 2008 10:17 AM PDT reply actions  

But Oregon looks really good.

Bear in mind their loss to Boise State was with their fifth-string QB.

by Rishi on Oct 8, 2008 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

When have they looked really good?

by MCM711 on Oct 8, 2008 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

Basically all their other games? Watching them at least.

by Rishi on Oct 8, 2008 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

I would respectfully disagree.

by MCM711 on Oct 8, 2008 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

Fair enough – we have seven more games left to see who’s right.

by Rishi on Oct 8, 2008 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

The UCLA @ Oregon game is lose lose for you. If Oregon wins I say UCLA sucks. If UCLA wins, Oregon definitely sucks. We’ll have to wait until @ ASU and @ Cal.

by MCM711 on Oct 8, 2008 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

I feel like I should chime in to this conversation, given my credentials.

It's spelled "S-h-u-f-a-i-l"

by JShufelt on Oct 8, 2008 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

What credentials? You haven’t commented on your own blog in over 24 hours, while spending almost all your time here. You’re a Cal fan, embrace it.

It’s times like this I wish they’d never discovered CougCenterium.

by Maharg on Oct 8, 2008 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

They don’t talk much over there.

It's spelled "S-h-u-f-a-i-l"

by JShufelt on Oct 8, 2008 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m glad you chimed with your feelings about chiming in, very insightful!

by MCM711 on Oct 8, 2008 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

Glad to help out!
I’ll do it again, if you ever need it.

It's spelled "S-h-u-f-a-i-l"

by JShufelt on Oct 8, 2008 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Do you thin you could chime in regarding whether thats the DLine or OLine in my warm up photos?

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 8, 2008 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Done.

It's spelled "S-h-u-f-a-i-l"

by JShufelt on Oct 8, 2008 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Another long-winded comment about polls

I disagree that phrasing the inquiry in terms of what a team “deserves” is a loaded question. There are at least two reasonable ways to approach the question, each pointing to the two main polling methodologies. One assumes that a team deserves a high ranking based on a retrospective analysis of the totality of its accomplishments (which suggests a resume ranking), and the other assumes that a team deserves a high ranking based on a prospective prediction of its capabilities (which suggests a power poll). I’ve clearly voiced support for the former, but either is a plausible means to answer the “deserves” question.

That said, I don’t think asking a loaded question is such a terrible thing—if the question precludes some answers, but it still seems like right question, maybe that tells us something about those answers. The useful contribution of the “deserves” question, I think, is twofold: (1) it precludes the “Predicted Finish” methodology from further discussion; and (2) it focuses our attention on the teams themselves, which can occasionally get lost around bowl season when everyone is salivating over particular “matchups.”

For as much as I (and the rest of the CFB blogosphere) have made about the divide between power polling and resume ranking (hooray for alliteration!), the differences tend to be marginal when it matters. By the end of the season, even though I said rags shifts from left to right, it’s also true that the endpoints come closer together: few teams’ rankings will change between final pure power poll and a pure resume ranking. There’s value in those margins, though, especially if we look one game earlier. Maybe I’m revealing a deep inability to let go of a traumatic experience, but I can’t help but feel that in 2004 Cal had accomplished more than Texas (better resume) while Texas was more likely to win on a neutral field (more powerful?), given some of the injuries Cal had sustained by that point. We all know Mack “Color of Shit” Brown fucked us there, but I also think we suffered at the hands of the power pollsters.

That’s one of two key reasons I’m so adamantly for a resume ranking, I think: in general (looking past Cal’s particular plight), I think resume ranking better chooses/rewards teams in the postseason. A team ought to earn its bowl berth based on the games it played, not the game it might possibly play – prognosticating the relative performance at that point in the season unfairly favors historic powerhouses and media darlings. The second reason works backwards from there and just asks, “why wouldn’t this be the best method throughout the year?” High rankings are in some ways a rewards in and of themselves, so dispensing that reward ought to be meritocratic unless there’s some compelling reason not to. Moreover, the stickiness of the rankings—the propensity to try to keep some semblance of continuity from week to week—favors the high-profile teams in a way that mirrors the end-of-year bowl selection favoritism. Resume ranking helps counteract that, if only a little. It encourages the voter to think freely about which team should be ranked what even after the early weeks’ inertia kicks in.

So I ended up rambling waaaaaaaay more than I hoped to, and I’m fighting the urge to go back and fix all the logical leaps I made, but whatever, I’m done. That’s what I think about polls. Bring on some Marshawn highlights or something.

The Bear will not quit, the Bear will not die

by Calfan on Oct 8, 2008 11:48 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

A shorter response

I think we’re mostly in agreement, actually, except over semantics, which aren’t really worth arguing about. We both understand the concepts involved.

As for résumé ranking, I will say that you pose a compelling argument for it. Perhaps you’ve changed my stance on it a bit. I still don’t think it necessarily leads to the best ranking available, but I now at least think it is worth doing, perhaps as a component of a final ranking. Perhaps, if I have time, I should come work up a résumé for each team under consideration, and use those results to inform my final ranking. Something worth experimenting with, for sure.

So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!

by ragnarok on Oct 9, 2008 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

You’re not the only one scarred by 2004. If USC was in our position in 2004, I guaranfuckingtee USC goes to the Rose Bowl. The whole prestige thing can be pretty frustrating. It’s the whole Prestigious Team A lost to Crap Team B because they had a bad day and they remain ranked, while Less Well-Known Team B loses to Crap Team B and it must be because they suck. The SEC wreaks of this!

by MCM711 on Oct 8, 2008 12:34 PM PDT reply actions  

Except when Vanderbilt wins, they become awesome.

by Rishi on Oct 8, 2008 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

This has to be cleared up

The Rose Bowl bid had almost nothing to do with Mack Brown’s cajoling. Texas had been screwed out of BCS bids the two previous seasons (more so in 2003) by the same annoying inequities in the BCS system that screwed Cal.

In 2002, Texas finished the season 10-2, finished the regular season #9 in the country, but finished in the Cotton Bowl. Not a terrible slight (similar to what happened to Missouri last year), although Florida State got in ranked #17 in the BCS because they won a terrible conference going 9-4. The next year was the bigger area of contention.

In 2003, Texas finished the season 10-2, finished #5 in the country (a situation similar to Cal) and should’ve earned an at-large bid, but Kansas State won the Big 12 title game and beat undefeated Oklahoma, handing the Big 12 champion bid to Kansas State and giving the at-large bid to Oklahoma (who were still ranked highly enough to play in the BCS title game). That relegated Texas to the Holiday Bowl where they lost to an upstart (sound familiar?). A little more complicated than the Golden Bear scenario.

Cal fans can put the blame on Mack, but it’s likely that pollsters didn’t want to screw Texas again after a three year resume of double digit win seasons rather than risk it on the Golden Bears possible one trick pony.

Don’t hate the player, hate the game. DOWN WITH THE BCS.

by BearsNecessity on Oct 8, 2008 1:06 PM PDT reply actions  

Except that’s exactly what Mack Brown whined about…

by Rishi on Oct 8, 2008 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ok, trade places with Mack. If Tedford hadn’t done the same thing (stoicism) and Cal somehow got hosed out of the Rose Bowl, fans would have LIT HIM UP. Mack had no choice but to plead his case.

I doubt it had any influence on the pollsters, who were inclined to vote Texas based on the resume they’d built over three years.

by BearsNecessity on Oct 8, 2008 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why am I caring about Mack Brown’s emotional state again?

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 8, 2008 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Because if it is agitated and he decides to hang it up suddenly, who do you think will be one of the first coaches they’ll come calling for with a $200 million dollar contract?

by BearsNecessity on Oct 8, 2008 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Is it me? Will I get the 200 million dollar contract?

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 8, 2008 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

No, you maroon. It’ll be me!

Don’t worry, I’ll still write for the blog though. Dennis Franchione style.

Still happy over the fact that the Nets signed Ryan Anderson. Now if only they can sign Leon Powe after this year...

by yellow fever on Oct 8, 2008 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hey when you have a 200 million dollar contract, do you think I could hav e loan? You know I’m good for it!

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 8, 2008 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

No, you’ll just eat all the money again!

by Rishi on Oct 8, 2008 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is based on . . . what?
Cal fans can put the blame on Mack, but it’s likely that pollsters didn’t want to screw Texas again

That’s pure conjecture on your part. Fine, it’s plausible enough as a hypothesis. Is there any evidence? The timing of the vote changes certainly suggest Mack played a roll. If the voters were primarily concerned that they might “screw Texas” again, it’s likely they would switch the in the last week—when the danger of Texas getting left out would be the clearest. Instead, the vote switching began earlier than that, and coincidentally coincided with Mack begging for votes. That included Texas gaining on Cal in the polls the week the ’Horns had a bye and the Bears won Big Game by 35.

Don’t hate the player, hate the game. DOWN WITH THE BCS.

I hate the unethical player AND the game. Down with Mack, down with the BCS.

The Bear will not quit, the Bear will not die

by Calfan on Oct 8, 2008 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, Mack begged for votes. Do you think it has that much of an effect on voters? Cal did win the Big Game by 35 over a 4-7 ‘Furd team, but anyone who watched that game would say it was a sloppy one, and it was only locally televised if I recall correctly. But obviously the press had already started the "Texas shouldn’t get screwed again" campaign by then, which played more of a role than Mack did.

It’s like the Oscars, where not the most deserving team gets in but the team that hasn’t earned it yet gets in. It’s a political contest.

by BearsNecessity on Oct 8, 2008 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

maybe I'm in the minority... (probably)

But I like the BCS.

Not a Longshorite. Not a Rilerian. I'm a Mansionite.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com

by HydroTech on Oct 8, 2008 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

You seem to always be in the minority Hydro. But you should definitely write a post about it one of these weeks and include many references to Nate Longshore as possible. You might cause CGB to explode.

It doesn’t even have to be a thousand words. One hundred words should cause nuclear meltdown.

by BearsNecessity on Oct 8, 2008 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

If I wanted CGB to explode I could do it with less than 100 words – I can do it with six. I merely have to go over to BearInsider, put up a post saying “LONGSHORE IS THE BEST QB EVAIR!!!” and the resulting explosion from BearInsider will demolish the CGB too.

Not a Longshorite. Not a Rilerian. I'm a Mansionite.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com

by HydroTech on Oct 8, 2008 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

That might cause the world to implode upon itself.

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 8, 2008 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

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