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[Now with Summary]: carp's crazy thoughts for a Wednesday: Pac-10 Expansion

 

This FanPost is Part Two of a Three Part made-for-blogging mini-series.  Part One is found here addressing the need for OOC Rivalry Games.  Dave over at Maize n Brew (Michigan) and irish1611 over at The Ralphie Report (Colorado) put my FanPost regarding potential OOC Rivalry Games on the front page of their respective blogs (thank you!).  Both schools were tired of their rivalries (Michigan-Notre Dame and Colorado-Colorado St) and welcomed the opportunity for a rivalry game with Cal.  Why rivalries over random home/home sequences with other good BCS teams?  Rivalries create hype which creates media exposure and increases cash flow while improving prestige.  Here was my general intro to this mini-series:

 

For awhile I’ve been thinking about how to boost the prestige of Cal football and the Pac-10 conference.  Opinions in college football count more than opinions in any other sport until computers replace humans.  The Bay Area (thank goodness!) is not the South or the Midwest so it is nearly impossible for Cal and other members of the Pac-10 to surpass rural America with established programs.  My friend is an OU Sooners fan and I tell him college football has the ability to make schools and states relevant.  I’ve developed three ideas that are fun to think about that would help boost the image of Cal (if it wins) and the other teams involved.  I welcome any comments or critiques.

 

2) The Pac-10 Conference Expands and Reshuffles.  I’m sure there are lots of Cal fans who enjoy the 9-team round robin format and that “10” follows nicely after “Pac.”  There are a lot of benefits to that and it is an easy way to establish the best team in the conference.  However, the #2 in the conference gets the Holiday Bowl and that is a major drop off.  The Sun, Vegas, Emerald, Poinsettia, and Bell Helicopter Armed Forces Bowl are perceived as equivalent of one another and generally are pathetic.  Only the Ivy League has had the same teams in a conference longer then the Pac-10.  That matters if you like tradition.  I’m proposing the Pac-10 agrees to invite two teams into the conference to make a Pac-12 (weird!).

 

This isn’t as crazy as it sounds.  In fact in 1959, the five PCC teams (Cal, Stanford, UCLA, USC, and Washington) started talking about forming a new conference.  Retired Admiral Thomas J. Hamilton interceded and suggested the schools consider creating a "power conference." Nicknamed the "Airplane Conference", the five PCC schools would've played with other big schools including Army, Navy, Air Force, Notre Dame, Penn, Penn State, Duke, and Georgia Tech among others. The effort fell through when a member of the Pentagon vetoed the idea and the service academies backed out (source).  The football prowess of the service academies plummeted after Vietnam.  That would have been a lot of traveling and I wonder if they ever looked at a globe.

 

Texas nearly joined the Pac-10 after collapse of the Southwest Conference.  I thought Colorado also nearly joined but I couldn’t find any links.  A Ralphie Report blogger thought 1994 was the year they almost joined the Pac-10.  Utah, BYU, and TCU (Mountain West Conference) as well as Boise St. and Fresno St. (WAC) usually field solid to good football teams.  Utah and BYU seem like schools that are academically on par with some of the Pac-10 universities.  If invited, I think Colorado would at least consider moving to the Pac-10 to have a better shot at football glory than being in a league that has been dominated by the Big 12 South since Osborne retired.  The Buffs were national champs in 1990 and I think they should be considered a program that is currently down but has history of being successful.  The Buffs got rolled by Chase Daniel’s video game offense last week.  Moreover, their fans are open to a move to the Pac-10 (read the comments)!  An expansion, in my opinion, would require an established BCS team to come along with a non-BCS team and Colorado is the only school that makes sense from so many different angles.

 

So who to choose out of Utah, BYU, Boise St, Fresno St., Hawaii, TCU, and New Mexico?

 

Likeliness of defection:

 

Boise St. > Fresno St. > Utah > BYU >> Colorado > TCU.

 

Likeliness of Invitation:

 

Colorado > Utah > BYU > Boise St. = TCU > Fresno St.

 

Let’s start with the WAC since they are the most fragile.  No way would 4 California Pac-10 schools feel good about Fresno St joining their BCS conference (Oregon as well for that matter).  Boise St, which has built an impressive program, doesn’t really fit academically and I would argue isn’t well rounded athletically.  Hawaii and New Mexico aren’t good enough (next!).  TCU has access to Texas talent and plays in a weaker conference.  I doubt they’d like to move and they are significantly more east than any other school.  BYU and Utah make the most amount of sense from an academic, geographic, and athletic perspective.  BYU is a good school but the Pac-10 only has ‘Furd and $C as the other private institutions; the ‘furd isn’t doing so hot and $C has loose academic standards (well, they also have loose women so it’s not all bad!).  Frankly, BYU could get its ass handed to it in the new Pac-12, much like the ‘furd.  A Utah fan suggested that the TDS (Team Down South; BYU) is very well off financially (on the order of Notre Dame) and that they have national recruiting capabilities since it is Mormon U.  I’d counter that ‘furd is only behind Harvard in terms of cash flow and that hasn’t solved all of their problems.

 

From a scholastic perspective, Utah and Colorado make the most amount of sense.  The Chancellor’s at both schools should feel good about rubbing elbows with the likes of UW, UCLA, Cal, and ‘furd.  Utah’s fans have been talking about this already over at Block U and they are on board.  In fact, they’ve talked about it three other times (see links within the comments of that FanPost).

 

I’m doing this assuming all of the athletic programs will compete in the Pac-12.  There is precedence for a school having different conferences for football and everything else.  If I ruled the land (hey, it’s my FanPost!) I would love to take Colorado and Utah.  I might settle for one of Boise St/BYU and Colorado.  I mean Wazzou and ASU are also Pac-10 teams so Boise St. shouldn’t feel like the dumb kid in the room. 

 

You might be wondering if non-BCS teams can compete regularly with BCS teams.  UofA and ASU were once WAC powerhouse teams, too.  I think a school like Utah would have less of a chance at losing a coach like Urban (Rban) Meyer if Utah was a BCS team in the Pac-12.  Utah, Boise St., and TCU are ranked very high right now.  BYU had Corso and Herbstreit drooling not that long ago.  These teams, I believe, are ready for BCS caliber play and will help reduce the number of weird non-BCS buster teams.

 

Hell, I’d almost dump Wazzou and add Utah, Boise St/BYU, and Colorado.  I don’t care about Bledsoe, Price, or Leaf…Wazzou is an embarrassment to the Pac-10 right now.  A move might be best for both Wazzou and the Pac-10/12.

 

Why expand, you ask?

 

This would allow us to make Pac-12 North and South or West and East divisions…much like the Big 12 N/S and SEC W/E.  To compete with superiors we need to be like superiors and that means an over-hyped Conference Championship game, more OOC games to keep interest and intrigue high, and have bloated rankings so conference L’s don’t hurt so bad (see Big 12 S).

 

Pac-12 N

Washington St./Boise St./BYU

Washington

Oregon

Oregon St.

Utah

Colorado

 

Pac-12 S

Cal

Stanford

USC

UCLA

ASU

UofA

 

Pac-12 W

Washington

Oregon

Oregon St

Cal

Stanford

UCLA

 

Pac-12E

Utah

Wazzou/Boise St/BYU

Colorado

ASU

UofA

U$C (farthest east out of all of the other West schools)

 

I think the W/E divisions are more equivalent than the N/S divisions.  The N looks too weak to me.  We don’t want the Big 12 N/S disparity but I could be overrating Cal, UCLA, and ASU.

 

Each team plays each other in their division with two randomly scheduled cross-divisional games (7 conference games).  This is followed by a Pac-12 Championship game.  This will allow for 5-6 OOC games (the Big East has six OOC games I believe!).  Rivalries, such as the Apple Cup and the Victory Bell, could be scheduled in lieu of an OOC game but would count as a non-conference game (hey, L’s still matter!).  This flexible OOC schedule with 5-6 open dates will allow for Utah and Colorado to play TDS (BYU) and Nebraska, respectively.  The Pac-12 will require that each team plays at least two OOC BCS teams (and no FCS teams!) in their schedule and with 5-6 open dates this should be easy.  I’d be interested in hearing others scheduling ideas.

 

Conference prestige would be increased with two respectable football programs (perhaps three if we dump Wazzou and add Boise St/BYU).  Combined this with a new OOC Rivalry Game and we have a conference that has the potential to compete with the SEC and the Big-12 while distancing itself from the Big-11, the Big East, and the ACC.  What happens to the WAC, Mountain West, and or Big 12 conferences?  Not sure.  They can figure it out just like the Big East figured it out when VaTech, The U, and BC left for the ACC not that long ago.  The Big-12 could dump Baylor and become the Big-10 that actually has 10 teams in it.  The Mountain West or WAC can have Wazzou and Baylor (and who cares, really?).  Defecting is rather easy: a conference invites them and the team/school agrees to leave.  I might even be open to welcoming the four non-BCS teams in the Pac-10 that are excelling right now (BYU, TCU, Utah, and Boise St.) and having a Pac-14 (but only if we dump Wazzou and add Colorado).  That would remove nearly all of the non-BCS busters (I do not believe in Tulsa or Ball St).  However, I think it helps to bring Colorado’s street cred to this effort and adding four (!) non-BCS teams is a little scary when we already have an FCS team (Wazzou).  I’d much rather have a Pac-12.

 

More teams mean less dollars to go around and college football is a huge cash cow.  A Buffs fan pointed out that the Big 12 brings in more revenue than the Pac 10 currently does.  I have no idea if that is true or not.  However, this would put college football teams in nearly every major market in the West (LA x2, Bay Area x2, Seattle, Phoenix area, Denver area, Salt Lake City, and some could argue the greater Portland area.  Moreover, this increases the likeliness of having two teams in the lucrative BCS bowls in addition to having a Conference Championship game late in the season between two good (perhaps ranked) teams.  I think BCS victories give the conference on the order of $15 million/game (is this right?).  The current Pac-10 has proven twice that it can’t get into two BCS bowls/yr (#4 Cal of ’04 and #13 ASU of ’07, the latter of which fell 7 spots in the polls from the previous week following a victory).   How the revenue generated from the new Pac-12 would compare to the old Big-12?

 

Decisions like this have to be made carefully (see the ACC).  I bet I’m violating some big no-no’s and I’m sure AD’s and Commish’s have safety nets in place.  Pretend I just cut the nets.  Feel free to add your thoughts and ideas to this and be sure to vote in the poll if you’re a Cal fan.  I’ll have polls at your SBN blogs for fans from other schools.  A decision of this magnitude needs input from other Pac-10 teams so I’ll post similar things at the schools that have entered the 21st century and have SBN blogs (I’m looking at you ‘furd!).  This includes ATQ, Conquest Chronicles, House of Sparky, Bruisnation, Building the Damn, UW Dawg Pound, and CougCenter, as well as Block U and The Ralphie Report.  I also e-mailed Dr. Saturday (formerly SMQ), Ted Miller, and Jon Wilner to get their input.

 

I’ve addressed OOC and conference games…it will soon be time for my last idea that I’ll release in the coming days.

 

I am carp and I approve this FanPost.

Poll
Cal fans only: Are you in favor of a Pac-10 expansion?
Yes
20 votes
No
37 votes

57 votes | Poll has closed

The opinions expressed in a FanPost are, in every way, reflective of the opinions of every California Golden Blogs Marshawnthusiast. Moreover, they are reflective of every employee of SBNation, including Tyler "Blez" Bleszinski.

Comment 57 comments  |  2 recs  | 

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Like Godfather II, this sequel is actually BETTER than the original.

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 29, 2008 9:13 AM PDT reply actions  

thanks TnH!

Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.

by carp on Oct 29, 2008 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

But that bodes poorly for the third portion

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 29, 2008 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

what if it included Allison Stokke?

Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.

by carp on Oct 29, 2008 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

Everytime she tries to get out, she keeps getting pulled back in.

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 29, 2008 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

true...

I just hit up every blog I could think of…I wonder if site traffic will be at gameday levels?

Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.

by carp on Oct 29, 2008 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

‘sniff I’m so proud of you!

by sec119 on Oct 29, 2008 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Im learning, Im learning!

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 29, 2008 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Wow. I laud your effort. Nice interesting post…

by CaliSeth on Oct 29, 2008 10:11 AM PDT reply actions  

thanks CaliSeth!

Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.

by carp on Oct 29, 2008 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hell, I’d almost dump Wazzou and add Utah, Boise St/BYU, and Colorado. I don’t care about Bledsoe, Price, or Leaf…Wazzou is an embarrassment to the Pac-10 right now. A move might be best for both Wazzou and the Pac-10/12.

If we’re going to make a significant change to the Pac-10 shouldn’t we consider long term implications? Just because a team isn’t looking strong currently, it doesn’t mean that they should be immediately cut in favor of someone else. It’s not too long ago that a certain Pac-10 team was going 1-10 and at the very bottom of the Pac-10, how would you feel if we were cut from the league for one bad season?

It’s times like this I wish they’d never discovered CougCenterium.

by Maharg on Oct 29, 2008 10:23 AM PDT reply actions  

that is true Maharg...maybe we shouldn't give 'em the boot

but some think the ‘08 Cougs are the worst team in the history of the Pac-10. And it’s tough to see, in this day and age, how they’re going to improve.

Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.

by carp on Oct 29, 2008 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

might be nearly impossible

to remove a team once their in a conference

Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.

by carp on Oct 29, 2008 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not Impossible

The Big East kicked Temple out a few years ago.

So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!

by ragnarok on Oct 29, 2008 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

good knowledge!

Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.

by carp on Oct 29, 2008 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

or

We could be like one of those bands that, instead of kicking out a member no one likes, simply break up, and then reform without them under a different name.

So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!

by ragnarok on Oct 29, 2008 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

We could be the Pac+10 instead of Pac-10!!! It’ll be genius.

It’s times like this I wish they’d never discovered CougCenterium.

by Maharg on Oct 29, 2008 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wazzou has been to a Rose Bowl more recently than we have.

They were ranked (albeit for a week) in 2006.

They’ll bounce back.

by Rishi on Oct 29, 2008 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

fair enough

Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.

by carp on Oct 29, 2008 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nice post

But I think the Pac 10 muckymucks like the balanced scheduling in basketball and football too much to make an ambitious grab for expansion. I personally think it would be fun to expand, though such decisions should be made (like you said) on academics and proficiency in most sports over a long-term basis, not just because the schools of interest happen to be good right now.

Also, while it is enjoyable to poke fun at us cooooooougs (everybody’s doing it!), we won’t be down for long. We’ve hit rock bottom, true, but we’ll be back next year significantly better. And last time I checked, who has been to at least one Rose Bowl since 1959??? I hope you’re being tongue-in-cheek!

I don't believe in the existence of the St. Louis Rams. They're just an urban legend!

by johnnycougar on Oct 29, 2008 10:25 AM PDT reply actions  

that is true johnnycougar...

Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.

by carp on Oct 29, 2008 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

Also WSU is the last team to go to the Rose Bowl from the Pac10 not named USC.

I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 29, 2008 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

At least we've been to a Rose Bowl...

I’m looking at you, Arizona.

So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!

by ragnarok on Oct 29, 2008 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

I can't support this because of recruiting issues

The talent base on the West Coast would be spread even more thin than it already is (look at how UW and Wazzu have fallen off with $c’s stranglehold)), and institutions with academic standards lower than Cal’s (Fresno St., Boise St., Utah, etc.) could lure many of the recruits away from our program because they now offer BCS conference ties. As it is, Cal already has to compete with $c, Oregon, UCLA, and national recruiting powers for the very top recruits in CA. I see an expansion ending badly for Cal.

...nuh nuh nuh gone

by Thoroughbred on Oct 29, 2008 10:44 AM PDT reply actions  

fair enough...it's hard to argue if that's true or not but it's definitely a good point

Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.

by carp on Oct 29, 2008 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

No fucking way

Good post but no fucking way in hell

In other words, Go Bears!

by royrules22 on Oct 29, 2008 10:55 AM PDT reply actions  

care to add something since you feel so passionate about this?

Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.

by carp on Oct 29, 2008 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

maybe you'd like to expand, Spazz?

Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.

by carp on Oct 29, 2008 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Basically:

-round robin is awesome
-travel to away games in Wazzu is hard enough
-dissimilar academic profiles
-schools have to be competitive in more sports than just football
-no real reason to

Sheriff of the Welcome Team.
Welcome.
Now Go Away.
And Stop Arguing Nate vs. Kevin.

by Spazzy Mcgee on Oct 29, 2008 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

cool, thanks for replying.

I appreciate your input.

My counter:

- RR is awesome, but so is the $ and prestige generated from 2 BCS bowl bids.
- I respect the hell out of people who drive to road games. Flying to Utah or Colorado wouldn’t be that bad though. I like to fly to Seattle and Phoenix for road games, most other places are better to drive.
- Utah and Colorado (and BYU) would be better than ASU, Wazzou, OSU, and USC in academics. They’d be competitive and might even surpass UofA and Oregon. These schools do big time research. I’m in the academic field so I feel like I’ve got a good handle on this aspect.
- Bruisnation likes BYU/Utah combo because of hoops + football. I agree, it’s better to have well rounded athletic teams. I have no idea if they are good or not in sports like softball.
- Prestige would help recruiting and bring in money for the conference. This is a better way to get two BCS bowl bids than the status quo.

Others seem to like Utah/BYU because it’s closes and brings an existing in-state rivalry.

Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.

by carp on Oct 29, 2008 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

^^^What he said

Sheriff of the Welcome Team.
Welcome.
Now Go Away.
And Stop Arguing Nate vs. Kevin.

by Spazzy Mcgee on Oct 29, 2008 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

I have a question about the money issue

So I get it that expansion might add enough prestige to our conference to increase tv revenues, as well as the added conference championship game which is always megabucks. But I’m not sure how that translates into better bowl games or, as you claimed, increased likelihood for two BCS games. It is my understanding that the current bowl game setup for the Pac-10 is contractual, and we would be potentially running a big risk to break away from those bowls in search of better games. Maybe in an expansion, all the bowls would be eager to restructure deals to ensure higher payouts and more prestigious opponents, I guess I don’t know that much about it.

But the big risk / reward is the BCS. I don’t see why adding Colorado and BYU or Utah and BYU makes us more likely to get two bids. If the reasoning is just that they are good programs with reasonable expectations to reach BCS games occasionally, I would argue that the only reason they have such expectations is that they play five to six games against absolute patsies every year. In Boise State’s case, they have maybe three hard games all year. Perhaps these programs would elevate themselves if placed in our conference, but that’s a gamble. If the reasoning then is that human voters will look at the two divisional champs as having better acheivements than just 1st and 2nd in the Pac-10, well I guess I could see that. But that is certainly no guarantee to get into a BCS bowl. It seems just as likely to me that the weaker division champ takes out the stronger one and gets the auto bid, and the stronger champ gets shunned by the BCS. In most years, I would guess that we’ll still only get one BCS team, and then the money is redistributed to more teams.

I don't believe in the existence of the St. Louis Rams. They're just an urban legend!

by johnnycougar on Oct 29, 2008 11:12 AM PDT reply actions  

Bear

I don't believe in the existence of the St. Louis Rams. They're just an urban legend!

by johnnycougar on Oct 30, 2008 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Older woman preying on younger men.

It’s times like this I wish they’d never discovered CougCenterium.

by Maharg on Oct 30, 2008 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

interesting idea.

I’m not in favor of it though.

I would rather have a full round robin schedule w/in league than a championship game.

Go Bears Go

by Rocksanddirt on Oct 29, 2008 11:55 AM PDT reply actions  

I here ya

but I don’t hear Big12/SEC teams bitch about the lack of a round robin schedule. They don’t bitch because there are better all around teams. This is moving the conference towards better all around teams and it wouldn’t be like $C and the Pac-9 (gasp!)

Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.

by carp on Oct 29, 2008 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m pretty sure Colorado isn’t going to leave the natural confines of the Big 12. And Utah isn’t going to desert it’s in-state rivalries to compete with West Coast schools on a daily basis.

The only reasonable options are Hawaii (the Pac-10 makes it far more convenient for their travel time) and maybe another California school with strong enough academics (San Diego State? Cal Poly? San Jose St?).

You guys might have to wait until UC-Davis makes its bid for Division I. Then we’ll have our own little Baylor.

by BearsNecessity on Oct 29, 2008 1:34 PM PDT reply actions  

"natural confines" meaning the last 12 years?

Do you think they’ll all of a sudden stop out-recruiting Texas and Oklahoma schools? As soon as the Southwest Conference teams got comfortable they’ve been off to the races.

I’d be against any of those teams you mentioned. And Utah could play BYU as an OOC game…just like Florida plays Florida St, Georgia plays Georgia Tech, Southc Carolina plays Clemson, Colorado plays Colorado St., ’furd play SJSU, Texas plays N. Texas, Louisville plays Kentucky, and W. Virginia plays Marshall.

UCD (my alma mater) did it’s UC part and beat the ‘furd but they’re bad. Davis is a college town but no one cares that much about football. They play South Dakota St in conference games!

Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.

by carp on Oct 29, 2008 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m not absolutely against expansion, but I have strict criteria.

One thing I really like about the Pac-10 is that you have 5 strong geographic arch-rivalries, like the Big Game. Whether it’s SC-UCLA, the Civil War, etc., everybody has a good end-of-the-year grudge match against their closest neighbor.

If we go to 12 teams, I want the 2 newcomers to have that kind of rivalry, to keep the balance. And they have to be reasonable academically and good across a range of sports. Does such a pair of teams exist on the west coast?

I may not be a funny bastard, but at least I'm a bastard.

by OskiMonsta on Oct 29, 2008 2:05 PM PDT reply actions  

Utah and BYU

are the closest you’re going to find to filling that criteria. And they can certainly be found wanting.

So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!

by ragnarok on Oct 29, 2008 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

that one is definitely more established

than CU-Utah. But I could see that working too. They used to play each other, iirc.

Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.

by carp on Oct 29, 2008 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure that

Utah and BYU would split. Their rivalry is one of the strongest in the country.

by SuperBruinMan on Oct 29, 2008 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

again, interesting idea but a couple of points:

1) The teams you discuss might well be interested in joining the Pac-10, I don’t see how adding teams that are not nationally respected as anything but occasional curiosities would do anything to increase the prestige of the Pac-10. Schools like Boise State, TCU, BYU, etc., are extremely slow in garnering actual, genuine respect from outside fans and the mainstream media. Moreover, all they have to do is lose once and all of that respect disappears in a cloud of dust. Remember how many people were talking about big, bad Fresno State before the season started? I haven’t seen Pat Hill’s mustachioed face anywhere since they lost to Wisconsin. Also, while BYU was winning people were talking about them as BCS busters and Max Hall was getting Heisman consideration, but once they lost it all disappeared. These schools appear to be good because they largely win out in easy leagues, and occasionally pull an upset on a powerhouse. If you want to increase Pac-10 prestige through expansion, you’ve got to get teams that are better than the ones you already have. This is why everybody thought the ACC had scored a major coup when they landed Miami, FSU and VaTech – they all of a sudden grabbed teams that were MORE prestigious than the ones they already had.

2) More OOC games (resulting from more teams in conference) does nothing in and of itself – those games have to be victories. In terms of league prestige, it seems like intersectionality is the best gauge, and the Pac-10 has sucked out of conference this year. We don’t need to add more teams from out of conference, we just need to beat the ones we already play! The Pac-10 was actually somewhat respected last year because we had big out of conference wins. Imagine a not-implausible alternate universe where Cal had beat Maryland, Oregon had beat Boise State, ASU had beat Georgia, and Washington had beat BYU: this, on top of USC’s dominant win over Ohio State would have conceivably had pundits talking about the Pac-10 the way they did last year. More teams would have been ranked, and there would have been more prestige for the conference. As it happens, we lost all of those games and the Pac-10 became a laughing stock.

2a) Games within a conference do absolutely nothing to address that conference’s level of prestige. If the conference is generally respected that year (e.g. Big 12, SEC), then all people talk about when teams cannibalize each other in conference is how “competitive” it is – losing teams are not punished that much. Oklahoma loses to Texas and falls only 4 spots, etc… By contrast, if the conference is not respected (ACC/Big East/Pac-10 this year), cannibalization tends to drag down even the reputation of the better teams, like USC dropping to what we now can see is a pretty good Oregon State team. Since Oregon State got manhandled out of conference, they can’t possibly be that good, can they???

3) A conference championship game doesn’t do anything concrete to add “prestige” to a league (although it does add $$$ all else equal). If anything, though, this can backfire. Think about how much easier the road to the Nat. Championship game is for teams in leagues that don’t have conference title games – Penn State, with only one quality win, will walk right it if Texas (assuming they make it) loses the Big 12 title game to a team (either Mizzou or Kansas) that they have already beaten once.

4) There is something nice about a round-robin – there are no pretenders. Kansas comes to mind as a team that basically had a free ride to BCS bowl game largely as a result of not playing Texas, Texas Tech, or Oklahoma. This year, they have continued to beat crap teams but are out of the rankings altogether because they are being spanked by real teams. The round robin eliminates that possibility.

by bearsglory on Oct 29, 2008 6:01 PM PDT reply actions  

And round-robin eliminates the possibilty of “Team A hasn’t played Team B, But Team A might be better” occurence within the same conference.

See, Georgia and LSU last year.

by Rishi on Oct 30, 2008 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

but both went to BCS bowls and enjoyed

$30 mil split 12 ways…think about that…think about the porta potties on top of Stadium Rim Way…think about the decayed benches at Memorial…that’s all I’m saying

Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.

by carp on Oct 30, 2008 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

and Georgia ended up as the #1 preseason team in '08

and had every opportunity to hold onto that.

Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.

by carp on Oct 30, 2008 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

That had more to do with perceived strength of “BEST IN BEST OUT” SEC than anything else.

by Rishi on Oct 30, 2008 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

that's exactly the kind of image

the Pac-12 aims for

Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.

by carp on Oct 30, 2008 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Lets be like the Big10 and call it the Pac11.

Please disregard the above ramblings as those of a clearly delusional fan.

www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com

by TwistNHook on Oct 30, 2008 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

There is a nice flow to “packalevin”

Sheriff of the Welcome Team.
Welcome.
Now Go Away.
And Stop Arguing Nate vs. Kevin.

by Spazzy Mcgee on Oct 30, 2008 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not a fan of expansion.

I like the way the Pac-10 is set up. I like the round robin format. I like how every team has a natural geographic rival. I like, for the most part, the schools are solid academically. I like how all schools take the effort to have a full athletic program, not just football or basketball.

The only schools I could imagine in the west would be Utah and BYU.

Maybe Nevada and UNLV only because they’re close to California, but they wouldn’t really fit any other standard and I’m not even sure they even have an in-state rivalry.

Maybe we can wait for Merced to have a sports program or Davis to be D1, then Pac-10 (Pac-12?) can have a Central Valley rivalry with Merced/Davis and Fresno…haha…even better would be a San Diego rivalry with any two of USD (if they weren’t so small) or UCSD (if they had a full sports program) or SDSU (if they weren’t so academically challenged).

by j.lee on Oct 29, 2008 11:48 PM PDT reply actions  

Great job with all of this. Rec’d!

ಠ_ಠ

by Berkelium97 on Oct 31, 2008 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

hey thanks, I appreciate it

I took some heat up at UDub, who had thought I was either a Buffs fan or a Mountain West fan!

Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.

by carp on Oct 31, 2008 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

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