GoldenBlogs Top 25 - Week 9
So, did everyone do their reading for the week? Really? I see some nodding, but I see a lot of blank stares from the back of the room. You didn't even try, did you, Twist? You've been faking your way through this class from Day 1. And I don't want to hear about how your wife made you spend time with her. You've gotta make time!
Well, that's OK. We'll start off with a short discussion, giving you guys time to catch up before we have our pop quiz at the end of the class. Pop quiz!? Don't worry, if you've done the reading, it'll be a snap.
So what were we talking about again? Ah, yes, an economics-style analysis of AP voter behavior, using empircal tests to challenge conventional wisdom about college football (PDF). Confused? See last week's post for a synopsis. Now, we'll break it down (with this week's Top 25 interspersed throughout):
Methodology
The AP poll is a Borda count, whereby each team receives points based on where they were ranked on each ballot (25 for 1st, 24 for 2nd, etc.), and then ranked according to total number of points. In the paper, for each piece of conventional wisdom being tested, the effect of the assumption under discussion is tested by measuring the change in each team's point total following a qualifying win or loss. These results are then averaged to see if, say, winning by a large margin has a statistically significant effect on a team's point total.
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| Rank | Team | Delta |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | Texas | -- |
| 2 | Alabama | -- |
| 3 | Penn State | -- |
| 4 | Oklahoma | -- |
| 5 | Southern Cal |
-- |
| 6 | Florida | -- |
| 7 | Oklahoma State | -- |
| 8 | Georgia | -- |
No movement in the top of our poll, although I did consider moving Penn State up after beating Ohio State on the road, and I thought Oklahoma State proved it belonged in the top 10 even in defeat in Austin. Some wins were better than others, but I didn't see anything this week that convinced me my opinions of these teams last week were wrong.

Does beating strong opponents help?
Sorta, but not really. Turns out, "while defeating a strong opponent does not help, losing to a strong opponent actually softens the blow of a loss. For example, losing to a team with an 8-3 record would actually decrease the negative point change from losing by more than 15% of the change for a loss." If you think about it, this makes sense. Since most of the Top 25 wins each week, teams often simply move up in order after winning, leapfrogging teams that lost. Often, it takes a loss (or at least a suspect win) by a highly ranked team to get voters to consider moving a lower-ranked team above them, whether they've been winning impressively or not.
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| Rank | Team | Delta |
|---|---|---|
| 9 | Texas Tech | 1 |
| 10 | Utah | 1 |
| 11 | Boise State | 2 |
| 12 | Missouri | 5 |
| 13 | Ohio State | 4 |
| 14 | LSU | 2 |
| 15 | TCU | 1 |
Winners move up, losers move down. That's the basic idea here. Missouri gets a bump for absolutely decimating Colorado (58-0!), whereas Ohio State and LSU are treated relatively kindly for losing to tough opponents in Penn State and Georgia, respectively. Personally, I think we're being too kind to LSU, but I'm not sure who, exactly, I would rank above them. TCU drops a spot despite laying a 54-7 beating on Wyoming, who may be one of the 5 worst teams in Division I-A, entirely due to Missouri's leapfrogging of them. I'm going to blame this on our rotation of voters, as this week HydroTech fills in for the absent Yellow Fever.
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Does the margin of victory matter?
Again, not really. In fact, it's the same effect as with the strength of the opponent. Blowout wins do not seem to matter at all. Rather, it's the margin of victory in a loss that makes a difference: "close losses actually help, and blowout losses hurt the most." Again, this seems to play to the mindless way in which many voters act: everyone moves up when they win, and only when they lose do the voters stop to consider the severity of the loss, and decide how many places to punish the loser.
I glibly call these voters 'mindless', but if you really sit down and think about it, at this point in the season, should the margin of victory or strength of opponent cause teams that both won to leapfrog each other? If I thought that, going into the weekend, Team A was better than Team B, and Team A wins a squeaker while Team B wins going away, should that cause me to change my mind about what I knew beforehand, possibly disregarding the previous couple months of play? Early in the season, wild poll swings are far more justified because voters should disregard their preseason expectations; after a month or so, however, a voter should need a good reason to forget what they thought they knew and change their mind.
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| Rank | Team | Delta |
|---|---|---|
| 16 | Tulsa | 2 |
| 17 | Florida State | 9 |
| 18 | Ball State | 4 |
| 19 | Minnesota | 6 |
| 20 | Brigham Young | 3 |
Florida State is this week's ACC leader, which means that they're likely to eat it this weekend at Georgia Tech. Everyone else posts solid wins and moves up to occupy the spots vacated by last week's losers. Minnesota is still hanging around, mostly due to a soft-even-for-the-Big-10 schedule, including Northern Illinois, Bowling Green, Montana State and Florida Atlantic, but missing both Penn State and Michigan State. A thirteen-point loss at Ohio State has thus far, and may remain, their only encounter with real competition this year.
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Is it better to lose early in the season or later?
According to this paper's findings, it's actually better to suffer a late (10th week or later) loss. "Rather than significantly hurting teams, losing late in the season actually helps them—it lessens the blow of a loss significantly." To wit:
Given the point estimate in Table 3 and the number of AP poll voters, losing late in the season implies that more than 3/4 of AP poll voters rank a team one place higher in their rankings after a late season loss than for an early season loss.
Interesting, no? Once again, you can come up with a common sense, almost obvious explanation for this behavior. Lose in week 1 and you're 0-1; in week 2, you're 1-1. Lose in week 8? You might only drop to 7-1, in which case there are a lot of teams that already have two or more losses, and there just isn't that far to fall. If BYU loses badly to TCU in week 2, they almost certainly drop out of the poll, but since they lost in week 8, they only dropped 9 spots.
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| Rank | Team | Delta |
|---|---|---|
| 21 | Oregon | 5 |
| 22 | Michigan State | 4 |
| 23 | North Carolina | 3 |
| 24 | Oregon State | 2 |
| 25 | Maryland | 1 |
The "when to lose" dilemma doesn't really apply this far down in the poll; all of these teams have multiple losses, and all have looked bad at least once this season. I really had to stretch myself to find 25 teams to rank this week, and these were the stiffs we came up with. I'll bet a couple of these teams go down this weekend.
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3 open-ended questions
Okay, quiz time. Should be easy. Leave your answers in the comments; partial answers get credit too.
1) What do you think of these results? Do they make intuitive sense, or do you need to see mathematical proofs before you buy into the conclusions?
2) If voters become aware of the results this paper, do they become self-conscious of their own tendencies and begin to act counter to them?
3) Should voters act in the manner described, or do they unwittingly harm teams undeservedly by their collective actions, discouraging behavior (such as scheduling tough teams) that should be encouraged?
Extra credit (need to have done the reading on this one):
4) Did you spot any issues with the paper presented? Problems with the methodology, the mathematics, or the conclusions drawn? Does something seem "not quite right"?
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Dropped Out: Pittsburgh (#15), South Florida (#16), Georgia Tech (#19), Kansas (#20), Boston College (#21), Northwestern (#24)
A bunch of losers here. Kansas was able to withstand road losses at South Florida and Oklahoma, in part because the Jayhawks were competitive in both games, but giving up 9 touchdowns at home to Texas Tech is a pretty good was to get ejected from the Top 25. Not that Pitt (54-34 losers to Rutgers) or Boston College (45-24 losers to North Carolina) looked any better, and losing to Indiana (Northwestern) or Louisville (South Florida), however close, is not considered a "good" loss.
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OK, as to the last question, I don't claim to be an economist, and I have only a passing familiarity with some of the mathematics involved. However, I did have one quibble with the paper's conclusions: I don't believe it when it tells me that it's better to lose early rather than later.
Oh, the math is sound enough. I am certain that teams lose fewer points when they lose later in the season, due both to a) the teams below them having more losses, and b) the losing team having a larger track record of wins to counterbalance their loss. However, that does not mean that it would have been better to have lost late. The paper argues against me:
Even if one wished to argue that an early loss gives teams more time to make up ground in the rankings, the results here suggest that late losses leave teams with less ground to make up.
No, I'm still not buying it. Less ground to make up, sure, but less time to make up that ground. Comparing week 2 to week 3 is not at all the same as comparing week 8 to week 9. What we really want (and what this paper does not provide), is a comparison between week 2 to week 9. We should compare teams of similar initial standing who both end up with (say) a 7-1 record after 8 weeks. How do their point totals differ based on when their one loss was? The paper doesn't say, and indeed, the methodology given can't answer this question. It's not unknowable, just unknown within the framework of this analysis. Actually, it's too bad I don't have access to this data set put together by this paper, because I'd be really interested to find out the answer to this question.
Comments
Actually, your wife made me spend time with her.
NAILED IT!
I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
by TwistNHook on
Oct 28, 2008 1:08 PM PDT
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flag!
Hope is dangerous, but Glory is addictive.
by AndBears on
Oct 28, 2008 5:03 PM PDT
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Perhaps I shouldn’t have referred to you as “it.”
I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
by TwistNHook on
Oct 28, 2008 5:12 PM PDT
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double flag!
Hope is dangerous, but Glory is addictive.
by AndBears on
Oct 28, 2008 5:19 PM PDT
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call them up and either
ask for the raw data, or for them to do some of the evaluations you’ve raised as questions.
tell them you are writing a book.
Go Bears Go
by Rocksanddirt on
Oct 28, 2008 1:42 PM PDT
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hmm, perhaps an offseason project
if you read the paper, the author seems very proud of the “unique” data set that they’ve assembled. they don’t explicitly say it, but i’d guess that they’d be very protective of it.
i could assemble such data myself (AP Poll Archive seems like a good place to do it), but I know I won’t have time to undertake such a project until at least after football season, and probably not until after basketball season.
So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!
by ragnarok on
Oct 28, 2008 7:33 PM PDT
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Losing early is still better
While it is just one example, I think it’s telling that Michigan State ranks above Cal, and has consistently done so since the Bears’ first loss—despite broadly comparable records. Losing first (to the Bears!) perversely helped the Spartans as it allowed voters to justify placement of MSU ahead of Cal in the polls once the former strung a few wins together and the latter dropped a game it was “supposed” to win. I imagine many voters dropped the Bears below the Spartans because that’s how they saw it before the season started. But I also imagine voters thought that Michigan State’s loss to Cal was better (or less worse) than Cal’s to Maryland because of an impression at the time that Cal was a good team and Maryland was not. Talk about perversion: Cal’s reputation as being “good” actually causes it to be ranked lower.
I think the bottom line is this: high rankings go with high expectations. A favorable reputation wins one a high ranking, but it also sets you up for a big fall should you not live up to those expectations. I’m not saying Cal should necessarily be ranked higher that it is now, but the Bears clearly aren’t helped by what I perceive to be an undervaluation of the two teams that defeated the Bears, particularly when playing in their respective home environments. USC is being similarly sold short by voters’ undervaluation of Arizona, Virginia, and Oregon State.
Go Bears!
by California Pete on
Oct 28, 2008 2:42 PM PDT
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But I also imagine voters thought that Michigan State’s loss to Cal was better (or less worse) than Cal’s to Maryland because of an impression at the time that Cal was a good team and Maryland was not. Talk about perversion: Cal’s reputation as being "good" actually causes it to be ranked lower.
That is a very good point. I never thought about it that way, but it does lead to some pretty counterintuitive results.
So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!
by ragnarok on
Oct 28, 2008 7:26 PM PDT
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responses to 3 questions
1) They do make intuitive sense. The one thing that kind of sucks about losing later on in the season though seems to be that even if (ceteris paribus) you don’t drop as far as you would have earlier on, it can take you out of contention for a BCS or National Championship game. Powerhouse teams with an early loss, it seems, can crawl their way back into contention (this year see Florida, Georgia, Ohio State until they lost again), whereas teams that get knocked off later on have a harder time doing that.
2) No; voters are barely cognizant of which teams actually won or lost games on any given weekend, let alone their own tendencies.
3) There is definitely incentive to not schedule tough games. But there are many (primarily revenue-driven) reasons for this, only one of which being of the “what would poll voters think of us if we lost” kind (especially since the AP doesn’t count in the BCS formula anymore). This is also why I like the computer element of the BCS – it takes account of strength of schedule much better than humans do, and ensures to some extent that teams are rewarded for playing quality competition. Although, if what I say in response to 1) is true, it would behoove them to frontload all of their big matchups…
4) Uh, my dog ate it.
by bearsglory on
Oct 28, 2008 3:27 PM PDT
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especially since the AP doesn’t count in the BCS formula anymore
Granted, the AP poll no longer figures into the BCS standings, but I still think this study is worthwhile as a general study of how college football voters behave. The Coaches’ and Harris Poll both seem to operate along the same principles, if perhaps they aren’t as reactive as the AP poll is (because they see fewer games, or have less accountability). Heck, I’d bet that a fair number of BlogPoll voters do the same things (I know I do from time to time).
So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!
by ragnarok on
Oct 28, 2008 7:29 PM PDT
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I would expect the coaches' poll voters to behave like AP voters except even more stupidly...
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 28, 2008 9:54 PM PDT
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that's kinda what happens
the coaches’ poll is pretty good at reacting to final scores, but they’re often a week behind the AP on picking up on more subtle movements, like under-the-radar teams that are having surprisingly good seasons.
So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!
by ragnarok on
Oct 29, 2008 11:52 AM PDT
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Florida State does not deserve to move up seven spots for beating a feckless Va Tech team that lost both its first two quarterbacks during the game. Just put them in the Special ACC spots at #24 and #25, because you know they’re going to be gone the next week.
You’re just trying to win Mr. Numb Existence again so Brian can say nice things about you, aren’t you? I see your angles.
by BearsNecessity on
Oct 28, 2008 3:48 PM PDT
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Are you trying to say that Va Tech lacks feck?
I’ve always found them to have some of the most feck I’ve ever seen. And believe you me, I’ve seen some feck!
I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
by TwistNHook on
Oct 28, 2008 3:50 PM PDT
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I, for one, am sick of Avinash’s naysaying. He is saying WAY too much nay when he says Va Tech is short on feck.
by Spazzy Mcgee on
Oct 28, 2008 4:16 PM PDT
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Avinash is such a hapless fool!
He really needs to get more hap.
I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
by TwistNHook on
Oct 28, 2008 4:20 PM PDT
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Being hapa, I believe I have more hap than all of you.
OWNED FOOL.
by BearsNecessity on
Oct 28, 2008 7:50 PM PDT
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Florida State
Personally, I don’t think any of the teams behind Tulsa (#17-25) deserve to be ranked where they are. Ball State is undefeated, but their best win is still over 5-3 Navy, who, by the way, lost to Duke. Everyone else behind them has serious blemishes. The Seminoles do have wins over both Miami and Virginia Tech, and their only loss is to a pretty decent Wake Forest team. No, FSU isn’t any great shakes, but I’m not allowed to have blank spots on my ballot.
For what it’s worth, I had FSU ranked #20. We keep scoring high with Mr. Numb Existence because our ballot is an average of three opinions, so wacky opinions (such as mine) are tempered, and our final ballot looks a lot more boring.
So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!
by ragnarok on
Oct 28, 2008 7:24 PM PDT
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