Dispelling the Conspiracy Theories
We've got a lot of stuff coming up. Yellow Fever works his culinary magic. We've got a Q+A with House of Sparky and a preview of ASU. So, keep your eyes locked here.
Before we get to the YTT, we've been posting a lot recently. So, if you missed anything, look at our Post CSU thoughts, our CSU photos, photos, and more photos, the Fantasy Week In Review, and our debate over Top 25 rankings. Also, the Roundtable. And now back to the regularly scheduled Conspiracy post from HydroTech:
Let me preface this post by saying the purpose of this post is not to advocate any one QB over the other. Personally, I just want wins and if that's Riley, then fine, if Longshore, then fine.
The purpose of this post is to dispel some of the conspiracy theory talk floating around on why Tedford has started up the QB competition again mid-season. I want to dispel some of these conspiracy theories because they really are getting out of hand and ridiculous.
I know a lot of pro-Riley Cal fans are looking for some sort of way to explain why Tedford could put Riley's starting job at risk by opening up the QB competition again but let's stay grounded in reality here. Some of these theories are really far out there. Some of them are really grasping at straws. I merely want to try and bring some reality and reasonableness back to the conversation.
So let's get started with some of these "conspiracy theories..."
(1) "Tedford hates Riley"
This is pure speculation. I haven't heard anything in the media nor have I seen or heard anything during my time with the team. Furthermore, I do know that when the coaches recruit players, if any of the coaches has a negative experience or opinion about a recruit, Cal stops recruiting that player - no questions asked. Basically, should any of the coaches who are recruiting that player dislike something about a recruit enough to persuade that coach that the recruit should stop being pursued, the recruiting stops. Riley was recruited thus we should assume that (at least at the time Riley was recruited), all the coaches recruiting him (including Tedford!) did not dislike Riley.
Unless something in the media suggests this, or Tedford or Riley publicly state something of the sort, this theory remains nothing but a very speculative theory.
(2) "Tedford is setting up Riley for failure."
This theory is pretty far out there. Nothing definitive has come up to confirm this theory.
Furthermore, the logic behind this theory is extremely flawed and counter to common sense intuition. Why? If Riley fails, the offense fails. If the offense fails, the team is more likely to lose. If the team is more likely to lose, the team will lose more often. If the team loses more often, then Tedford is more likely to get fired. We should all be operating on the assumption that Tedford does not want to get fired. He's publicly said he likes it here at Cal. He likes the bay area. He likes recruiting with the ability to say recruits can come to the top public university in America. Tedford has a family nearby. Tedford's son is enrolled at Cal (perhaps even two by now). Getting fired would probably mean a new job, moving, and a huge hassle.
To believe this theory would be to believe that Tedford is willing to put his hatred for a player above winning. Above his job security. Above his family. No, I don't think that's a reasonable assumption.
To believe this theory also suggests that Tedford has lost or has no professionalism. I think most of us would agree that one of the concepts of professionalism is that you don't let your personal life get in the way of your job. We should all be operating under the assumption that Tedford has a high level of professionalism. If he didn't, then he'd be letting his emotions get in the way of of his job. His job is to win. If he doesn't win, he is at risk of being fired. I don't think he wants to be fired.
Tedford wants to win just as much as the rest of us do. If you don't believe that, you really really need to do a reality check. Setting Riley up for failure would not help the team win.
This theory is completely contrary to the goals of this team. This theory is completely contrary to the goal of winning.
(3) "Tedford is playing favorites" / "Tedford favors Longshore"
This seems to be the biggie. The favorite. It's easy to see why. It's simple. It seems plausible. No evidence is really needed to back it up since Tedford isn't just going to come out and say "I like Nate Longshore better."
But the logic behind this theory fails horribly.
I wrote why this logic fails in our CSU post-game blog post:
"It seems like people think Tedford favors Longshore…. still. Whether he does or not, I don’t know. But here’s where logic fails those who may think that Tedford favors Longshore. Assuming Tedford favored Longshore last year and such favoritism still persists, then why did Tedford choose Riley over Longshore as the starter for the 2008 season? If Tedford was playing favorites, he would have chosen Longshore to start the 2008 season over Riley despite numerous reports from Okanes (and a few quotes from Tedford himself) that Riley was playing better.
Tedford said last year that he stuck with Longshore because he gave Cal the best chance to win – from that we can assume that Longshore was outplaying Riley in practices. But let’s entertain and analyze the theory that Tedford plays favorites and merely likes Longshore and hates Riley. So let’s just assume for the sake of this remaining argument that instead, Riley was outperforming Longshore in practices during the post Longshore-injury part of 2007 as so many believers of this theory suggest, and nevertheless Tedford was playing favorites and stuck with Longshore. That means Tedford favored Longshore over Riley despite Longshore’s inferior play. Continuing with the analysis, let’s jump to this year. Prior to this season, Tedford said Riley would get the start against MSU which is contrary to the theory that Tedford favors Longshore. After MSU, Tedford said Riley “earned” the starting job since Riley played better than Longshore. This too is contrary to the theory that Tedford favors Longshore. Furthermore, the scenario immediately after MSU is the same scenario in 2007 (post-Longshore injury): that Longshore was not playing as well as Riley. Thus, since these are the same scenarios, then we should expect Tedford to choose Longshore as the starter both times since Tedford plays favorites. But in reality, Tedford chose Riley to start after MSU – which as I said earlier, is contrary to the theory that Tedford favors Longshore.
That was a lengthy and complex analysis, but the point is that if Tedford truly is playing favorites or “hates Riley” then Tedford would have made Longshore the starter for MSU, and would have chosen Longshore as the starter after the MSU game despite Longshore’s poor performance against MSU (since the logic is that Tedford will continue to start Longshore despite not performing as well as Riley – which supporters of the “Tedford favors Longshore” theorists claim to have happened in 2007). But Tedford didn’t choose Longshore to start against MSU. Tedford didn’t tap Longshore as the starter after MSU.
There is no favoritism for Longshore."
(4) "Tedford has double standards" / "Tedford stuck it out with Ayoob in 2005, and Longshore in 2007, but now he's not going to stick it out with Riley in 2008"
First, let's tackle the "Tedford stuck it out with Ayoob in 2005, but now he's not going to stick it out with Riley in 2008" theory.
This conspiracy of double standards is flawed because you can't compare 2005 and 2008. In 2008, we have Riley and Longshore. Who is better between Riley and Longshore is debatable and irrelevant to our analysis. What is essential is the assumption that both are very capable QBs. We've seen flashes of brilliance from Riley against Oregon State. We've seen Riley light up Air Force. We saw Riley put up a very strong performance against Michigan State. As for Longshore, Longshore in 2006 was "good." Longshore pre-injury in 2007 was "great." The talent level between Riley and Longshore is very close.
But in 2005, we had Ayoob and Levy. Neither was "great." Both had their limitations. Neither was a top Pac-10 QB. But Ayoob was always more of a talented QB than Levy. I know Levy won the 2005 Big Game and the 2005 Las Vegas bowl, but I stand by that statement. I've seen these two in practices. I've seen what Ayoob was capable of before his confidence got shot. Ayoob was the better QB and the talent difference between Ayoob and Levy was much much more than between Longshore and Riley.
And that's why you can't compare 2005 and 2008. They are different situations. In 2005 we had a much larger talent different between Ayoob and Levy. In 2008, we have a much smaller talent difference between Riley and Longshore (whoever is better is irrelevant).
This year, if one QB isn't performing, we have an almost equal backup waiting in the wings.
Now what about comparing 2007 and 2008? A lot of conspiracy theorists say Tedford has double standards in that he stuck with Longshore for so long in 2007 but isn't sticking with Riley for as long in 2008.
Fellow Cal blogger BeastMode from The Sporting Contrarian had some great thoughts (which just so happen to correspond with mine) on this conspiracy theory. In his most recent post, he wrote these comments in regards to opening up the QB competition again and Riley possibly riding pine:
Isn’t this exactly what Riley supporters and Tedford doubters wanted last year? When a player isn’t performing, said player gets pulled. Always comPETE. Sorry, just because Tedford stuck with Nate last year doesn’t mean he owes Riley anything this year. If things really have changed under Tedford, and Riley truly is ineffective in the eyes of JT and Cignetti, then Riley needs to sit.
BestMode's thoughts are very much on the mark. If the pro-Riley supporters wanted Riley to start because they thought Longshore was ineffective and they want the more effective QB to start, then they shouldn't be complaining about the fact that Tedford is considering playing Longshore instead when Riley hasn't quite performed up to his usual standards.
And maybe Tedford did make a mistake last year by sticking it out with an injured and less effective Longshore for so long, but like BeastMode said, that doesn't mean Tedford owes Riley the same deference.
Fellow Cal blogger BearsNecessity from BearsNecessity had this to say in our comments:
Could this be Tedford, you know, learning from mistakes?
I think another fellow Cal blogger hit the nail on the head. If Tedford thinks he did make mistakes last year by sticking with a less effective QB, then perhaps he's learning and being quicker to replace those players who aren't performing up to par.
Final Thoughts:
Those pro-Riley fans last year who wanted Riley to start because they thought he was more effective should be rejoicing this year that Tedford is considering playing a different QB, whom Tedford thinks will be more effective.
But I know a lot of pro-Riley Cal fans aren't rejoicing at the fact that Longshore might start this Saturday.
Again, BeastMode had an applicable quote in our comments:
What I don’t get is all these hypocrites saying Tedford has to stick with Riley. Aren’t these the same people that said Tedford is too loyal, that he stuck with Ayoob and then Longshore too long? Didn’t they want him to change that and pull a guy if he’s ineffective?
BeastMode asks very importantly, if the same people last year who said Tedford is too loyal to (favors) the ineffective 2007 post-injury Longshore are the same ones who want Tedford this year to pull a guy who is ineffective.
It seems like BeastMode assumes the answer is yes - that the same people last year who said Tedford is too loyal to (or favors) the ineffective 2007 post-injury Longshore are the same ones who want Tedford this year to pull a guy who is ineffective.
I propose the answer is actually no. They aren't the same people. If they were, then just as BeastMode suggests, these people wouldn't be complaining about the possibility of Riley riding pine. They would be supportive of the idea of playing a guy that Tedford thinks would be more effective.
So what are these people instead? These people are pro-Riley Cal fans who want to see Riley start no matter what. Their minds are made up. No matter how good Longshore may perform, or how bad Riley may perform, they just want to see Riley start no matter what - for whatever reason.
Every Cal fan is entitled to their opinion. I'm not here to dissuade pro-Riley Cal fans who want to see Riley start no matter what from their opinion.
I'm just here to defeat the growing number of ridiculous conspiracy theories which have popped up everywhere, and to bring some reasonableness back to the table.
There is a very logical, reasonable reason why Tedford has opened up the QB competition again:
Cal may have a more effective QB on the sidelines.
Again, I'm not saying Longshore is a more effective QB. I'm saying Tedford may think that.
I know the above reason is not one which many Riley-should-start-no-matter-what Cal fans like to hear, but it's a much more plausible, reasonable, and logical answer to why Tedford has opened up the QB competition again than "Tedford is setting Riley up for failure," or "Tedford hates Riley," or "Tedford has double standards," or "Tedford is more loyal to/favors Longshore."
Riley-should-start-no-matter-what Cal fans are entitled to their opinion, but I so respectfully propose that perhaps their unwavering opinion is blinding them to the so very simple, logical, and obvious reason why Tedford may start Longshore.
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I agree, but to a certain extent. The coaches obviously know more than we do, but I really hope that Tedford takes into account the effect this has on Riley’s confidence. Saying that after a poor performance, he’s going to open up the competition (yes, one bad performance – his performance, especially in clutch, at Maryland was good), is not good for Riley’s confidence. Also bear in mind that Riley is just a sophomore. He’s going to be at Cal for at least another year.
Now, if “opening up the competition” is just a way to force Riley to work harder and put a little scare into him, I’m all for it. If the QB situation is going to be a constant derby (and not a two-QB system), then I’m not happy.
But In Tedford We Trust, right guys?
I hate to bust out the oldest cliche in the book, but it’s true: if you have two quarterbacks, what that means is you don’t have any. There should be no two-QB system: we need a starter and he needs to have the confidence that the hook is not waiting for him the first time he floats a pass, especially given how utterly green the receiving corps is.
Here’s the thing: if Tedford wants to pull Riley and start Longshore, fine. He’s the head coach, it’s his call. But if Longshore is not materially more effective, then either he gets pulled – in which case all the QBs start to look over their shoulder – or he stays in, and we’re back to the argument over what it would take for Tedford to pull Longshore short of him electing to start his Mormon mission in Burma or somewhere.
And there’s no disputing one fact: Riley is the QB of the future. Messing with his psyche now will cost us down the road. Building his confidence and trust now – even if we wind up going 7-5 or so – may well pay out substantially in 2009 or 2010. Given how much youth there is on the squad this season, I’m not convinced that the whole “THE FUTURE IS NOW” approach is a good idea, unless U$C goes in the tank so hard they hit their head on the bottom and That Bowl opens up…
I hate to bust out the oldest cliche in the book, but it’s true: if you have two quarterbacks, what that means is you don’t have any. There should be no two-QB system
Kick ass Oregon! 3-QB system!
Or does that mean we have -1? Is that why we have so many injuries at QB? It’s mathematically determined?
It's spelled "S-h-u-f-a-i-l"
Two answers:
1. Our projected starter got injured before the season started…
2. Stegosaurus was 6th string once. It’s been tradition ever since.
It's spelled "S-h-u-f-a-i-l"
Depends on who you ask…
The majority of fans would say yes.
I’m in the minority and say “Meh. He didn’t screw up. That’s good enough.”
And it was the Sun Bowl. :-)
It's spelled "S-h-u-f-a-i-l"
But how would Stegosaurus do if he was given the chance?
I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!
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He was always a dual threat kind of guy.
He could pass it, and – and then there is the whole tail whip, kill the front 7 thing.
Oddly enough, tail whipping is not against the rules of college football.
So he’d usually pass for about… 185 yards, and a TD or two, but he could rack up the yards on the ground due to the tail whipped dead front 7.
It's spelled "S-h-u-f-a-i-l"
He sounds like Tim Tebow, but slightly worse.
I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
Alex, I’ll take Tedford was playing favorites for $200.
Assuming Tedford favored Longshore last year and such favoritism still persists, then why did Tedford choose Riley over Longshore as the starter for the 2008 season?
Gee, after Longshore’s complete failure down the stretch without ever playing Riley for a single down, Longshore’s lackluster performance in the AF Bowl and Riley finally getting a shot at playing when the team is down by 21 points and still he manages to win the game, what is Tedford’s first reaction? All positions, including quarterback, would be open for competition during spring practice. And when did Tedford finally pick Riley? At the very very end of camp. And then Tedford reopens the QB competition when the team is 3-1? What part of too long do you not see? What part of too quick isn’t there?
BeastMode’s comment about the hypocrisy of pro-Riley fans (that would describe me) says:
Tedford is too loyal, that he stuck with Ayoob and then Longshore too long.
Again, look at the game logs. After OSU, Riley didn’t play another down (as Danzig’s awesome highlight reel points out) until the AF Bowl unless it was holding PATs which aren’t in the Final Notes on calbears.cstv.com. This is with Longshore sucking massive rhinoceros schlong week after week for six games and still Riley gets not a single play from scrimmage. What was Einstein’s definition of insanity? Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Now fast forward to October 2008:
●Is Tedford playing favorites?
The fact that Longshore even gets any playing time at all after his MSU meltdown should be enough evidence.
●Is there a double standard?
Let’s see 1-5 with an NFL backfield and receiver corps and Longshore still plays every down versus maybe getting yanked at 3-1 with a raw receiver corps? Yeah, that’s a double standard.
●Has Tedford learned something?
Not yet. Hopefully after Longshore is gone Tedford will reflect on all of this. I even think that Tedford’s done a disservice to Longshore by being overly loyal to him. By never benching Longshore, I think Tedford reinforced bad habits.
The pro-Longshore cabal needs to be a little more convincing than to label us Rileyans conspiracy theorists.
Your boy sucks. It’s that simple.
Stanfurd Delendum Est.
yeah, he does suck
He should have run the right route @ UCLA and caught those two td passes @ Stanford himself.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
yeah, he does suck
Longshore shouldn’t have thrown that pass at UCLA and he should have lit up the worst pass defense in the PAC-10 for a career game. He should have been handing out TDs like condom samples at the Polk Street Fair. That game shouldn’t have even been close.
Stanfurd Delendum Est.
by Olsonist on Oct 2, 2008 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
nice image.
"He should have been handing out TDs like condom samples at the Polk Street Fair. "
yeah, if only he had time to throw
he should have lined up at left tackle and blocked those guys himself.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
I absolutely agree he should have lined up at LT. He’d have done less damage to the team.
Stanfurd Delendum Est.
and you're right, he shouldn't have thrown it there
As a QB, you ALWAYS want to wait until after your receiver makes his break to throw the ball. NEVER assume he will run the proper route and throw it to where he’s supposed to be.
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
by CBKWit on Oct 2, 2008 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Folks...
One of the comments Brent Musberger made during last year’s Tennessee game was that Cal QBs will often throw the ball before the receiver breaks. There’s a great catch by Jordan (me thinks) during the 2nd half that illustrates that point. During the replay, they split the TV screen so you could see Jordan with his back to Longshore when Longshore releases. The ball gets to Jordan right when he turns around.
Now I’m no big city lawyer like Twist, but if a receiver (like one during last Sunday’s Eagles game that seemed to run the wrong way on a route) runs the wrong route on a play like this the possibility of a interception seems high.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??
You clearly don’t understand football LONGSHORE SUX FATTY DONG
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
- 3s
- 25 yard throw with more hangtime than a bad punt
- staring down his receiver
- throwing into double coverage
- no coverage read
- on the 30 yard line down by two
Longshore tracked and threw the ball to where Jackson was. At some point along the way, it becomes his fault for throwing it. Better to wait for Forsett or dump it out of bounds and let your kicker bail you out.
BTW, a terrible play call to begin with.
Stanfurd Delendum Est.
The coaches disagree with your assessment
as has been reported ad naseum on this blog and other places. So…
Olsonist for Coach!
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
Really? It was third and five. That’s two plays to make five yards. Do you:
a) Dial up a tricky pass play with no bailout option?
b) Exercise ball control?
Stanfurd Delendum Est.
Mmm, 30 carries for 67 yards. A field goal kicker who struggled from 40+. Winning strategy? POUND THE ROCK!
I was more annoyed with the playcalls on the original two plays (run up the middle, run off tackle). You have to pass on one of those plays and pick up that yardage, than grind the ball out. Run that swing dump with Forsett or a screen if you’re not comfortable with Longshore’s arm, given that the front four has dominated Cal’s o-line at the point of contact.
by BearsNecessity on Oct 2, 2008 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions
FORGETTING OREGON STATE
It’s never mentioned anymore how badly Riley messed up at the end of the Oregon State game. I was watching this game at an apartment with some Cal alums, and they were in disbelief. I remember one quote: “This fool will never play another down for Cal again…”
I’m sure Tedford realized the stigma around Riley and did NOT want to put his QB of the future under sever scrutiny until the bad taste of almost being #1 left the mouths of Cal fans, not to mention THE PLAYERS. Does anyone know how the team itself reacted to Riley’s gaff???
I can’t come up with another situation (barring injuries) that could be as potentially devastating to a young QB’s career and confidence as was the end to that game.
Can you tell me that you wanted to see Riley in the UCLA game after what had happened the previous week? Maybe you don’t remember how badly people were ripping Riley…
I think all of this made Tedford extremely gunshy when dealing with starting Riley over Nate.
The only reason we were still in the game was because of Riley. Tedford only told him ten minutes before gametime for the first start of his career. And yeah, he took a few quarters to get comfortable against a tough PAC-10 OSU passing defense. Compare that with Longshore at Tennesee with the entire summer to prepare.
Riley played great save one play. Awesome. As tough as that single play was, it was that game that made me a Riley fan.
Stanfurd Delendum Est.
I was a Riley fan after that game too
That’s not the point I’m making though…
This was a incredibly delicate situation, and he could not just throw Riley into another situation that could destroy his confidence as a young QB. This is one of the few situations in which, I believe, a player really could get destroyed by the media, fans, etc.
I agree with this, but I thought the same applied to Longshore. At some point, I thought Tedford was just torturing him by leaving him out there.
Stanfurd Delendum Est.
Yeah, but try something. Longshore was, let’s be charitable, struggling game after game. Tedford put Levy in for a struggling Ayoob who was a backup to Longshore, and Levy answered the call. Something.
In fact it wasn’t a lose lose situation; Tedford just thought it was. Riley was in fact ready. He was in fact pretty darned good. He should have gotten some playing time. As a Rileyan, I don’t bemoan the fact that Longshore gets playing time. I’m happy. But this start Longshore movement is just misguided. It isn’t even desperate. It’s delusional.
Stanfurd Delendum Est.
Riley is struggling game after game right now
Ergo, he should keep starting. Brilliant!
I'm still wondering why the Nets didn't draft Leon Powe.
It’s interesting how the pro-Longshore troglodytes will completely absolve Longshore of a game losing 4th quarter interception, one of his seven 4th quarter interceptions (UCLA-2, ASU-2, U$C-1, Stanfurd-2), and want to replace a ‘struggling’ 3-1 QB with said same INT artiste. Especially when said same artiste starts off the season with 2 INTs in 5 throws. The mind just boggles.
Stanfurd Delendum Est.
Ignoring the extremism of this, the happy medium would be that both Riley and Longshore have their pros and cons. You can’t ignore Longshore’s “good” body of work more than you focus on his “bad” body of work, and same with Riley. It’s not that I don’t get what Longshore’s done wrong, but that I also appreciate all that he’s done right.
At this point, it’s clear from the discussion that neither’s done anything blatantly obvious to be way better than the other. You imply Cal is 3-1 b/c of Riley; I say they could have been 4-0 if he’d played better. The point is not to dump on RIley, but that there’s not much difference between the QBs. Therefore, Tedford has to force the issue of who’s the better QB by opening up the competition.
it's even better when people absolve Riley from losing the #1 ranking last year
I'm still wondering why the Nets didn't draft Leon Powe.
That’s a straw man argument. The main point of emphasis is that there should be a QB competition, not necessarily starting Longshore. But if he wins out, that’s great. Tedford said there’d be a competition, NOT that he’s starting Longshore, and just that a competition exists is what’s set the Internet ablaze.
that's actually my main point
I didn’t bother dumping on Riley until he actually started sucking. AND HE HAS FOR GOD’S SAKE
I'm still wondering why the Nets didn't draft Leon Powe.
There are two different definitions being used here
1) Throwing completions=sucking
2) Throwing interceptions=sucking
Hmm, which is worse?
by BearsNecessity on Oct 2, 2008 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Longshore: 16-8 (.667)
Riley: 4-2 (.667)
by BearsNecessity on Oct 2, 2008 7:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh man, they are tied. This is such a tough decision!
BTW, how is the Armed Forces Bowl counted in there?
I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
Yeah, Longshore gets a No Decision even though he was behind 21-0 when he got pulled.
Stanfurd Delendum Est.
so is 16-9 vs. 4-2 really a big difference?
Seriously, man. This is grasping at straws. Riley is not playing like the savior everyone thought he would be. And believe me, if he were, there would be no problem. But he isn’t.
I'm still wondering why the Nets didn't draft Leon Powe.
Brother Fever, Longshore isn’t lighting it up either. A couple of TDs against CSU does not a savior make. Starter no. Relief yes.
Stanfurd Delendum Est.
I'm not saying Longshore's the savior either
But I think it’s worth reopening the competition if Riley hasn’t proven he’s that much better either.
I'm still wondering why the Nets didn't draft Leon Powe.
Huh? It’s not.
10-3 in 2006, including the Holiday Bowl victory
6-5 in 2007 (six regular season wins, five losses during the stumble)
The Air Force victory is attributed to Riley.
by BearsNecessity on Oct 2, 2008 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions
My theory is that Tedford is using this to keep Riley motivated. Riley seems to his play best while under pressure (Oregon St., Air Force, second half of the Maryland game) so perhaps he’ll up his game if he has to worry about losing the starting job. Until Riley starts throwing a lot of interceptions, I doubt Tedford will go to Longshore because our defense is good enough to keep us in most games.
my thought sans conspiracies
Tedford is a system qb guy. In his system, the qb has a lot of responsibility, but is not often called upon to make plays to win a game. Read the defense, make the right throw with confidence, direct a solid running game. Tedford system fits Longshore better, he can make all the throws, but is not a ‘playmaker’ to win a game by himself. Riley is a playmaker, he needs to still work on the management and consistancy that it take to really succeed in Tedfords system.
I think that is where the seeming disconect is.
Occam's Razor
Tedford has seen what we all have seen (whether we want to admit it or not), which is that Riley simply is not able to consistently move the offense.
He was ineffective against Washington State, but then again, we could have had a cardboard cutout and still won.
He was ineffective against Maryland until the 4th quarter when it was all desperation.
He was ineffective against CSU, but got bailed out by a punt block for TD, a punt return for TD, and a interception for TD.
His only good performance this year was against MSU. That’s 1 -3 as far as good performance. Meanwhile, Longshore looked effective against both Wazzu and CSU. Okay, not exactly the best measuring stick, but (and here’s the thing) He looked better than Rieley in both those games. So, taking his performance against MSU Longshore is 2-1.
I like the fact that Tedford is willing to make a chance. I don’t care who is QB, as long as he gives us the best chance of winning. Last year Tedford was stubborn and we collapsed. We don’t need to go through that again.
Go Bears!
One more theory...
(5) Tedford still works for Oregon and is trying to bring down Cal from the inside. But first, he had to build us up before bringing us down. He’s an sadistic bastard, that Tedford
QUESTIONS ABOUT THE OREGON STATE GAME
How many people were chanting “We’re #1” after it had been announced that LSU had lost??? Was the chant started in the Student Section?
Did Cal students really think this was a good idea?????
I watched the game on Versus, and I’ve never been able to get a straight answer.
No idea, but people were doing it around me. Pissed the shit out of me.
I'm no The Maharg! But I try. Oh, how I try!
www.CaliforniaGoldenBlogs.com
It was the alumni section. They heard it first over someone’s radio. It was the loudest I’ve ever heard the alum section cheer on their own, by far.
Did no one realize how bad of a jinx this was???
I practically crapped my couch when the broadcasters announced what was chanted
I dunno, I personally think it would have motivated the fuck out of the team. When Stanford took down USC, propelling LSU into would-be #1, they played the announcement loud and clear at Tiger stadium and the crowd went absolutely batshit NUTS. Are you telling me that Memorial doing the same thing would somehow affect the team NEGATIVELY? Hogwash.
I think it showed real lack of confidence in the players for the coaches to be like “HAY GUYZ WE’RE GONNA BE #1 DON’T TELL THE PLAYERS SHHHH THEY’LL FUCK UP.”
I see your point and agree with it, but we’re talking about the football gods here. I’m talking about jinxes and shit because, as a Cal fan, I didn’t think it was the right time to mess with voodoo… given that our entire team was injured, playing the OSU – the bane of the top tier Pac-10 teams.
The way that game (and the rest of the season) played out, it really seemed like someone had it in for everyone associated with Cal
It should be mentioned that Oregon State is playing another ranked 5-0 team on Versus tonight. I will feel for the Utes if they lose.
Thanks for mentioning that
I completely forgot to check Versus and simply assumed it wasn’t televised.
ಠ_ಠ
To call these consipracy theories is a bit of a reach
especially when generally sensible-ish people like Jon Wilner, who actually have to talk to Tedford face-to-face, are saying that at the least, there may be a double standard here. Wilner suggests it might not be that he dislikes Riley, but in fact, that Tedford just really likes Longshore and wants to give him a chance. Either way, I don’t think that is a particularly good reason to open this competition.
I think everyone is in agreement that Riley has been a bit underwhelming, but anyone who uses the “Longshore didn’t run the wrong route at UCLA” (a comment I think is utter garbage and drinking the Kool-aid upon Tedford only implying that it was the receivers fault, despite clear visual evidence that that was one of the most god awful passes of all-time) also needs to give Riley some slack considering he doesn’t have a lineup of guys who are going to be playing NFL football next year.
Second, Longshore got a chance against MSU and blew it. At a certain point, you just have to give up on a guy.
Third, I don’t want my QB picked because they outperformed the other guy in practice. Both of these guys have lots of game experience, and Riley still is the clear winner based on that criteria.
To make this an open QB competition, is to miss the forest for the trees (or whatever other metaphor you want to insert for missing the point). We won by a lot of points last week. Regardless of what happens over the next eight games, Riley is our starter next year, likely with largely the same receiving corps (once Tedford stops playing Young and Cunningham, and starts giving the young guys the starts.) As long as we are winning / Riley isn’t costing us games, I just think we should stick with him.
Yet lawyer=ENDLESS blog time?
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I'm not sure how much of the Maryland game was his fault
But he wasn’t exactly part of the solution. I’m not saying Longshore would have won the game, but I don’t know that you could say that he was clearly the right choice in that game either.
I'm still wondering why the Nets didn't draft Leon Powe.
On the Maryland game
I would say certainly Riley didn’t help things early on, but didn’t lose the game either. That really was a total team loss.
And the losses last season were totally on Longshore?
by BearsNecessity on Oct 2, 2008 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions
The fourth quarter interceptions didn’t help. I mean, in nearly all of last years losses (UCLA, ASU, USC at the least) there were specific plays that Longshore did royally mess up plays that were crucial to the outcome.
Not that Riley didn’t do the same at Oregon State.
Is it worse to screw up a play that is crucial to the outcome or not even get the team into the game in the first place?
You certainly remember the brutal 4th quarter interception much more than the 3 quarters of mediocre play, but which one do you feel is worse?
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In the end...
I guess losing in any form is bad.
But those interceptions were pretty damn tough to endure.
I agree. I was there in the pouring rain at USC. I was there at Stanford Stadium. And it sucked. A lot. I mean A LOT.
But it would seem to me not even getting the team INTO the game is worse than abruptly taking the game away at the end. Yes, the latter will suck a lot worse and stick in your brain a lot more.
But, objectively, wouldn’t you rather have 3 good quarters and 1 bad one than 3 bad ones and 1 good one? Either way its a loss, but at least in one we were competitive.
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I don't know
Which season was more emotionally traumatic for you – 2001 or 2007?
To me, those were the two extremes of (1) never being in the game (2) being in the game and ending up emotionally crushed at the end.
I think that personally I was more scarred by 2007.
That is an interesting comparison, because 2007 will be remembered as much more of a failure than 2001, even though we won many more games and went to a bowl.
For a variety of personal reasons, I greatly enjoyed the 2001 season. We didn’t care about football really back then. I attended all the games (save one thanks to a cousin’s bat mitzvah) and, even as we lost game after game, had a great time with my friends in the band and the stands. Some of my favorite-football related memories are from 2001, even if few are actually, yknow, football related.
So, yah, by the standard of “Fan Emotional Scarring” I guess 2007 is much more scarring (although we shouldn’t forget two HUGE wins over UT and UO).
BUT
Tedford does not, can not, and SHOULD not coach based on how it will affect the fans. He should not give a FUCK about us.
And, even if it hurts us more, the team that is competitive until the end is EPICALLY better than the team that is never competitive at all.
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I enjoyed the 2001 season
But I’m also an Eagles, Phillies and Nets fan, so maybe I’m just masochistic.
I'm still wondering why the Nets didn't draft Leon Powe.
Yeah
Though I am more scarred by 2007, I would never trade it for 2001. Dear God, 2001 was awful, and is only enjoyable with the hindsight that we won like 50 games over the next six years.
re: the UCLA INT
that is straight from Tedford. I’m sorry, but I’m going to trust our head coach. He knows more about the play design than I do.
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Upset alert
Pitt takes the lead on South Florida, albeit way too quickly. 26-21, going for two.
CBKWit must be overjoyed with LeSean McCoy.
You bet against Pitt at your own peril!
by BearsNecessity on Oct 2, 2008 8:06 PM PDT up reply actions
For blowing an 8 point lead in two minutes with some of the worst everything?
EPIC FAIL TO THE BEAVERS.
by BearsNecessity on Oct 2, 2008 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes. Complete choke job. Much like another Pac-10 team on the Versus Network. ;)
by Thoroughbred on Oct 2, 2008 10:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Theres a lot of contention here. But I hope we can all agree to the thought that having a healthy above average backup QB is an AMAZING luxury. God forbid anything happens to the starter (whomever that may be), but we are so lucky to have a solid backup like that. We’ll see what happens at ASU.
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A few thoughts
- I don’t buy the invest in the future argument. I want to win this year. I want to win next year too. They are not mutually exclusive. This is not an obvious rebuilding year – in the passing game yes, but our D and run can keep us in a lot of games. Play the best guy now.
- I tend to think that JT is trying to light a fire under KR. Based on the CSU post-game interview I listened to, he seemed unusually pissed off. I think he is doing his best to keep everyone in line after an easy game heading into conference play.
- We are a solid passing game (and kickoffs, doh!) away from being a very scary team this year. I think Tedford realizes this and is pushing for results. But the WRs are at least half the problem. I hope one of our illustrious QBs can get it going because we could really do some damage.
Where it went wrong for Nate
I hate to dredge up the painful past, but that game a couple years ago in Tucson still haunts us. I’m with Hydro, in that I don’t care who plays QB as long as the Bears win. Hell, list me as the first passenger on the Brock Mansion bandwagon. But I do truly believe that Longshore deserves serious consideration to start right now, and I’m very happy that the competition was reopened this week.
We all remember Nate’s struggles last year, but we also conveniently forget how truly great he was for most of 2006. Until Tucson. He actually played OK that game, before making what I still think was, by far, the worst pass of his career—the pick-six by Cason that gave the Cats the lead. Yet, Nate damn near came back from that disaster. First, on the next drive, he hits Hawkins for what should have been the game-tying touchdown. Then, he methodically marches the Bears down the field in the final minutes for what should have been a game-winning drive—including a fantastic across-the-field strike to THA1 that was a big toe from going the distance. And then it went all wrong again. His first game-ending fourth-quarter interception, which frankly wasn’t his fault. His lineman let him down by allowing a pass rusher to tip the pass at the line of scrimmage. Unfortunately, it seems that Nate has never been able to fully shake that fateful afternoon. I thought he did so in Eugene last year, but then there was that whole ankle thing, and he clearly has been pressing ever since. Maybe, just maybe, the experience on opening day this year has changed him; he certainly has appeared to be a much more relaxed, confident, and calm passer ever since.
As a fan, I’d like to see Nate given the chance. Not because I like the guy, but because I suspect (and hope) that he just might be able capture his original promise if given the shot. Then again, I’ve been seeing the glass half-full for more than 20 years now of watching Cal football (e.g., I still think Marc Hicks could have won the Heisman had he not transferred. OK, no, not really, but Hicks’s performance in that 1985 upset of SC remains one of my favorite Cal memories of all time.)
Go Bears!
Actually, that wasn’t his first clunker (and not much of a clunker anyway). Longshore struggled notoriously through that Washington game, and he was at best adequate during Washington State.
by BearsNecessity on Oct 3, 2008 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions
The only thing I want to say is this:
Can’t we all agree that Longshore in 2006 and pre-injury Longshore in 2007 were pretty good? A lot of people who don’t want to see Longshore play in 2008 cite all his INTs in 2007 but so many of those occurred when he was injured. Sure, perhaps he should have taken himself out of the games if he was so hurt or Tedford should have taken him out, but the point is that he had all those INTs while injured.
People who don’t want to see Longshore play only look to the latter half of 2007 to back their support for Riley. But this year, Longshore is not injured. Why should we NOT expect him to perform as well as he did in 2006 and pre-injury 2007?
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Well, those 2 interceptions in 5 passes in MSU didn’t help.
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Yes, you’re right. But two INTs doesn’t necessarily mean giving up on him so quickly. Not when he has a large and relatively successful resume.
My point is that he has performed great before. That can’t be ignored, yet it so often is. People only look to injured 2007 Longshore but not at pre-injury 2007 or 2006.
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I don’t doubt that you are correct, Hydro. All I’m saying is that no matter how great 2006 and early 2007 Longshore was, 2008 Longshore hasn’t been peachy keen. That’s the thing. At times, hes outplayed Riley. At other times, he hasnt. And thats why Tedford is in such a bad spot here. We’ll see.
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Hydro, it wasn’t just the two INTs stacked up against a large and relatively successful resume. There was the stretch of 1-5 at the end of the season last year and the AF Bowl.
Tedford has been struggling to give Longshore every possible chance he can. That’s ok. That’s even admirable. But in turn Longshore has to do something with them. So far, he hasn’t. At his best this year, he’s been playing about even with Riley. At his worst?
Honestly, given what you’ve seen of Longshore this year would you really conclude that he’s won his starting position back? Having him play in relief is not giving up on him. Far from it. But starting him?
Stanfurd Delendum Est.
Are we saying starting Longshore over the Riley in your mind or the Riley out on the field?
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Well, respectfully, I think Hydro is talking about starting Longshore since he has already gotten playing time in three of the four games. There’s no argument over the status quo. And I assume that the possibility of starting Longshore is what Tedford means as well by opening up the QB competition.
Stanfurd Delendum Est.
Okay, so it’s 2 INTs in 2008 and 1-5 stretch at the end of last year vs. a relatively successful resume. That’s fair. But the 1-5 stretch was when Longshore was injured and the entire team itself wasn’t playing that well. So while we can count the 1-5 against Longshore, let’s put an asterisk by it because certainly Longshore can’t wholly be blamed for that 1-5 stretch.
I agree that Longshore has not performed well enough to clearly be deemed the starter this year. That can’t be denied. But the fact is that Riley isn’t doing as great as he could be. I’m not saying Riley is doing bad. On scale of 1-10, with 5 being average, Riley over the past 4 games has been about a 5 or 6 when we know he’s capable of being an 8 or 9.
On the other hand, we know Longshore can definitely be an 8 out of 10, perhaps even a 9 out of 10 if he goes back to his pre-injury 2007 form.
Thus, my point is that it seems perfectly fair to put the QB job up for grabs again since we have another player who could possibly play better than the current player.
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It’s the receivers. The Romans had a way to handle this problem. Decimation.
A cohort selected for punishment by decimation was divided into groups of ten; each group cast lots (Sortition), and the soldier on whom the lot fell was executed by his nine comrades, often by stoning or clubbing.
Stanfurd Delendum Est.
Fair enough
The WRs haven’t helped Riley this year. From the firing of the Ferringo last year, and the comments by Tedford, the WRs obviously weren’t helping out Longshore in the latter half of 2007.
Ultimately, I guess Riley this year, and Longshore post-injury last year were suffering from WR mistakes.
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No conspiracy but not really fair
Yeah, I remember how fantastic Longshore was back in 2006 and pre injury 2007. But lets look at the first 4 games of 2006.
Longshore (2006 thru 4 games) – 66/100 for 880 yds with 10 TD’s and 3 INT’s
Ayoob (2006 thru 4 games) – 11/26 for 205 yds with 1 TD and 1 INT
Riley (2008 thru 4 games) – 62/109 for 735 yds with 7 TD’s and 1 INT
Longshore (2008 thru 4 games) – 19/26 for 215 yds 2 TD’s and 2 INT’s
Stats look pretty similar to me. So why does Riley get the shorter leash now? I don’t think that there is a conspiracy but for the QB competition to be reopened I would have liked to see Longshore perform SIGNIFICANTLY better than Riley this year. Which is not the case. (And please don’t try to chalk that miserable performance by Longshore against MSU as an aberration.)
On that note, why are some people so willing to give Longshore the benefit of the doubt in the second half of 2007. Everyone of the INT’s he threw seems to be due to the following:
1) His injury
2) Bad protection
3) Poor routes
4) Tipped balls
5) Any other excuse besides the fact that he made bad passes
Yet, when you speak of Riley’s struggles (if you can call them that), they are all on him because
1) The offensive line is awesome (did not see any pressure on Riley in the Maryland game)
2) These are experienced receivers who run all the right patterns
3) No receiver this year has dropped a ball thrown right to him (and if such receiver did it was still because of something Riley did)
4) When a screen, dump off, or pass in the flat does not go for massive yardage, that is the QB’s fault.
5) The ONE interception he threw was a terrible pass, he should have known the receiver was going to slip.
This is a young team that is still learning to gel together, particularly the QB and wideouts. Riley in no way has achieved the levels of ineptitude seen by Longshore in the latter half of 2007 to warrant a reopening of the QB competition.
A fair-minded analysis
RBBID, the numbers are helpful, and in basic principle I agree: Riley has not played so bad, nor has Longshore played so well, as to warrant a change. And I further agree, wholeheartedly, that Riley should have been playing the second half of last year, especially after the ASU game, if not before.
That said, I’ll stand by Hydro’s argument that we should give Tedford the benefit of the doubt here. With Nate healthy and Riley playing less than stellar, it’s more than reasonable to reconsider going with the senior QB who led you to a share of the conference championship just two seasons ago.
Nate threw two horrible passes against Michigan State, no doubt about it. But take those two throws away, and he’s been awfully sharp this year—much sharper than Riley. And let’s not forget that yards lost on sacks are NOT deleted from the passing totals. Riley’s sacks are absolutely killing the Bears’ offense, and while the struggles on the left side of the line have a lot to do with it, the simple fact is that Nate just doesn’t get sacked. Thanks to his (deserved) reputation of immobility, it’s probably the least appreciated part of Nate’s game. Especially when healthy, his footwork in the pocket is superb and he gets rid of the ball before the defense gets to him.
I’m not arguing that Longshore should necessarily start. And I’ll be as nervous as any Cal fan, if he does, about the prospect of another dreaded game-killing INT. But I can also easily see why Tedford and Co. are at least considering a change.
Go Bears!
by California Pete on Oct 3, 2008 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree a lot with calpete
in tedfords system, longshore is a star.
Uhh..Riley was sacked five times in the Maryland game. The offensive line was not close to awesome for three quarters.
by BearsNecessity on Oct 3, 2008 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions
A fair analysis indeed, with a few extreme arguments.
On that note, why are some people so willing to give Longshore the benefit of the doubt in the second half of 2007. Everyone of the INT’s he threw seems to be due to the following:
1) His injury
2) Bad protection
3) Poor routes
4) Tipped balls
5) Any other excuse besides the fact that he made bad passes
The first four points are valid. But I don’t think anyone is blind enough to agree with point #5. Not I at least. We all know Longshore threw some bad passes (game-ending INT against USC in 2007). The point that people argue by citing points 1-4 is that those reasons are why not all of the fault lands on Longshore’s shoulders. Nobody is trying to argue Longshore is absolved of all fault. But he’s certainly not at as much fault for those INTs for those first four reasons, as well as the fact that the entire team itself played poorly in the latter half of 2007, which subsequently led to high-risk passing situations which resulted in more INTs.
Yet, when you speak of Riley’s struggles (if you can call them that), they are all on him because
1) The offensive line is awesome (did not see any pressure on Riley in the Maryland game)
2) These are experienced receivers who run all the right patterns
3) No receiver this year has dropped a ball thrown right to him (and if such receiver did it was still because of something Riley did)
4) When a screen, dump off, or pass in the flat does not go for massive yardage, that is the QB’s fault.
5) The ONE interception he threw was a terrible pass, he should have known the receiver was going to slip.
I’m not sure if you’re speaking to me directly or just those people in general who are willing to give Longshore the benefit of the doubt, but I have never claimed any of the above 5 points. I don’t think any Cal fan has claimed those five arguments as for reasons why Riley’s struggles are all on him. As many very reasonable neutral Cal fans point out, this is just about Riley not playing as well as we know he can.
And sure, it seems like there is a double standard, but as I noted in the post, if Riley is getting treated differently than Longshore, it’s not because Riley is Riley, but it’s because the starting QB isn’t performing as efficiently as we know the backup can perform. Tedford is realized last year that he made a mistake by sticking with a starter who isn’t as efficient as the backup. This year, he’s not going to make that same mistake.
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